I also do not agree with Obama going to to ND and then to also receive an "honorary"!?

Also, I am not Catholic, but I am Pro-Life!

So you made a choice.

i am ex-catholic in part because of the churches stance on abortion. that ND wants to invite the president to speak is great. are bishops so afraid of one man that they think it is best to keep young people deaf to what he has to say? that would seem to go against the tradition of what a university is suppose to be about.

as i understand obama's position he wants to proceed down a road where people don't have to choose between abortion or having a child. that probably means contraception. i realise that the church is against that as well but the church does not rule the world nor should it.

Fancifully framed Degrees, Certificates and Sheepskins hanging on a wall do NOT make someone a better human being. Nor do they do anything to raise the character of the individual displaying them.

It is about time that the Catholic Church gets out of the Middle Ages when they believed that go forth and multilple meant make more Catholics. The church has no business meddling in politics and abortion is not a political issue. I am pro-life but am not going to insist that everybody has to agree with me. What I believe is between me and my God. NONE OF ANYONE ELSE"S BUSINESS!

Larry: President Obama has repeatedly stated, publically, that he is a believer in Jesus Christ. He also says, publically, and unhesitently, that he believes in marrige between a man and a woman. He also says he is very comfortable with "his" marriage. If those are not "basic" tenets of the church [AND THE ORIGINAL DEFINITON OF THE WORD "CHURCH" IS" A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO BELIVE IN JESUS CHRIST] I as a member of one of the oldest, if not "the" oldest Christian churches in the world don't know what tenet is. TO RID YOURSELF OF MENTAL BLOCKS IN YOUR RELIGIOUS THINKING, THE FIRST THING TO DO IS TO BEGIN TO MEASURE INDIVIDUALS BY THEIR CHARACTER; AND NOT BY THEIR CREED{S}.

The Church does not require or expect everyone to agree with its teachings. It does, however, rightfully require any institution claiming to be Catholic to follow the teachings of the Magisterium (the pope and the bishops aligned with him). Perhaps they should change their name to Fighting Irish U. and become a secular college. It would have been acceptable to invite a pro-abortion advocate to speak in a debate forum where both sides of the issue could be heard. It is not acceptable to invite the most pro-abortion president ever to give the commencement speech and to be honored with a law degree. This is nothing short of a scandal on the part of the university's president.

If Catholics were loyal to there faith, a Democrat would never be President. So either the elections are fixed or a lot of Catholics are not true believers. Im guessing the second.

I believe ND was very short-sighted when they made their selection for Commencement speaker. I'm betting that future speakers will be chosen more carefully. I think ND did this for the "status" effect. (they were able to bring the President in to speak early in his Presidency)

Also, Universities seem to have been becoming more liberal than they were 20 years ago. Many college alumni, like myself, do no see this as a positive move. Universities should be a place to gain knowledge, not political views. Those views should be developed by the student on their own, not fed to them by the University.

Religion needs to stay OUT of politics and stay IN churches and homes where it belongs. Or better yet... just disappear and end the myth.

I wonder if these Bishops would have been outraged had Bush been asked to speak at the university.  If they are so "pro-life" it seems that the tens of thousands of dead innocent Iraqi civilians he's responsible for would have made just as controversial.  Damn holier than thou bishops who don't even have children can sit in their tower judging and condemning people whose circumstances they don't and could probably never understand.

I'm so tired of all the righteously indignant people in this country trying to make their beliefs dominate the lives of everyone.

In my view abortion is a side issue and distraction, at best emblematic of the crisis confronting Catholic education. While not a Catholic myself, I think that Catholic institutions have an important role to play in fostering the "diversity" that the progressive elements in society so loudly espouse and celebrate. Diversity requires that differences be respected and even flourish and this is best accomplished by institutions that stand for their principles and resist homogenization within the larger culture.

Having been cloistered (incarcerated?) for four years in South Bend at the very beginnings of Hesburgh's drive to put ND on the path to Ivy League like credibility, I feel for those in the ND community who see their institution being hijacked. I was "an outsider" at ND but was never isolated or persecuted for it. But, make no mistake, it was their school. And they have every right to have their own.

It never was possible to have it both ways...to replicate the secular ethos while serving the needs of the Catholic community. Despite the furor that would arise, the Vatican would be well advised to yank not only ND but BC, Georgetown and others back to their original focus and purpose. Yes, they would lose some faculty under the mantra of academic freedom but frankly that is no loss... anyone who left was never dedicated to the mission to begin with.

I think it was pretty shrewd for ND to create this situation. First invite BO to speak. Then create a furor over their own invitation to fan the flames of his position on abortion. This innocuous little event has allowed the Catholic Church to keep BO's abortion position on the front page for a long time, rather than let it fall by the wayside with the rest of skeletons in BO's closet.

Totally stupid ..... He is not going there to promote abortion he is going there to give a speech and was invited. The catholic church is losing members right and left over horse hockey like this. Obama does not support abortion he does support a womans right to do what she wants with her own body and that is nobodys business except hers. get a life whiners nobody is paying attention to you except the people who do not matter the creeps who want to stick their noses where they do not belong.

The Church does not require or expect everyone to agree with its teachings.

Only if you join the church and they can buy enough politicians to change laws to suit them. Actually I am not sure they ever want the laws changed as then they would lose their voice.

This Church teaches that it is the only true church on earth and unless you are baptised in their church you are dammed to hell. So sayin the church does not require is a stretch.

Churches should not be tax exempt at all. People that go to church are weak and need sombody to lead them. You church people pay money to have somebody to lead you the wrong way. If churches were not tax exempt then these people that run the churches would not be rich and be driving BMWs.

Well ND has lost all it's respect, the catholic Church stands for nothing, otherwise the president of the college would have been removed weeks ago. My only question is, what amount of money is ND getting for giving up all it's moralls? Money? Federal grants from Obama? Wonder if they will dare pray while the president is there?

"It would have been acceptable to invite a pro-abortion advocate to speak in a debate forum where both sides of the issue could be heard."

OLV, I really kind of doubt that a debate on abortion is proper material for a commencement.

"It is not acceptable to invite the most pro-abortion president ever to give the commencement speech and to be honored with a law degree."

Notre Dame has granted honorary degrees to 9 of the past 13 Presidents starting with FDR. The four exceptions are Presidents Truman, Johnson, Nixon, and Clinton. President George W. Bush was not universally welcomed. Many students at President Bush's appearance wore armbands protesting his support of capital punishment.

Why, then, the big stink about Obama? The Catholic Administration of ND supports the killing of living, breathing American youth as cannon-fodder, but NOT the right of a woman to decide her own destiny? Sounds pretty hypocritical to me.

Or have them paid for by our immediate past president. Go Catholics, do anything, screw you neighbor's wife of Fri., go to confession and be forgiven on Sat. and take communion on Sun. Ah, let's see, is there a commandment that mentions love thy neighbor? What about the other nine? Start living them and quit spouting them. This is just racism in disguise.

President Obama has already earned his law degree from Harvard, so I am sure getting an honorary degree from ND or AZ university is not going to make any great difference in his life imo. LOL

Perhaps these bishops should be working actively to help the many children that are already here in or being born into poverty and disease with no way out of it.

It is easier to see the mote in someone else's eye that see the beam in one's own, as the good book stated. Those folks who are being so critical and want to rescind the invite should first remember their own skeletons in their own closets.

What about that priest/bishop that had three children with 3 teen ager girls before he left the priesthood and went into politics, that was noted recently in the news? What would have happened if the President had refused the invite noting his stance on say pedphelia and other acts of sexual abuse? As the good book states "let him who is without sin, let him cast the first stone" and all that biblical stuff.

Oh by the way the good book also states that 'there is nothing new under the sun' and a lot of other wonderfully interesting statements. LOL

Oh, please. Would that the "boys of the church" had been so vocal when all of the abuse of young innocent children came to light! And, to clarify for the bishops, President Obama is pro-choice, not pro-abortion. Neither the church or state belong in MY bedroom. It's none of their business. Big kudos to Notre Dame for holding firm on their invite. Go Irish!

R ford

Satan believes in Jesus too

If I were President Obama, I'd tell Notre Dame and these arrogant bishops to take a hike. He is the President of all Americans, not just the Catholic Church. Let them ride their holier-than-thou high horse and find some other speaker who is "acceptable" to them. I'm sure there are plenty of other colleges and universities who would welcome President Obama as a commencement speaker.

O Wilfred of Ivanhoe,

Why would Obama tell Notre Dame to take a hike? Notre Dame invited him. It's the bishops that are all up in arms.

Well said, Wilfred.

Cincy, just curious, why didn't you just go to Xavier? ND didn't sound like much fun for you.

This issue at Notre Dame by the religious elite is foolish.

The school is having the President of the United States of America speak at their graduation ceremony and giving him an honorary degree for he is the President not because he supports or doesn't support a personal issue that has nothing to do with his attendance.

This is why the Puritans are no more and the religious right is in decline. This is not what Jesus would do for he would invite President Obama with open arms, as he has taught us to do for 2000 years.

Freedom of Speech is guarenteed and no one can abolish that not even a bunch of Bishops who are our modern day Pharasies.

HARRY - VERY WELL SAID!!! INDEED!!!!

ALL can't be pleased, its impossible!!!

well ND is going to lose money for students and they should berry obama should not be their giveing any kinda speachs

We are not trying to please all.

The Catholic MASS has gone unchanged for 2000 years, the anti-abortion values that Catholics have is not all of a sudden, and Obama has done nothing "Catholic" anyway.

The Catholics have spoken, Obama is not entitled to speak there, he can speak elsewhere, its just not fair. Freedom of speech does not apply to the private institution... there are plenty of better choices. LOL we are pro-choice get it, we choose to ask Obama to stay away.

I'm amazed reading everybody supporting the popular baby killing President. I have  met 1 person that wants Obama there [he hates the Catholics]

So touching kids is ok, but a guest speaker who believe in abortion is not ok. I know why the catholics don't believe in abortion it's so the bishops have something to molest later on. Sorry I'm not an obama or catholic fan, but who really gives a crap.

They're not babies yet, they're fetuses. Plus, it's the mother's choice if she wants an abortion. Obama isn't taking every pregnant woman to an abortion clinic on a leash.

what r u saying? that obama believes in satan? r u really that crazy? really?! i can't believe that anyone would be that, i wont even say the word. you and these bishops need to get a life that is not in some fantasy land. and you really need to stop listening to those tv and radio nuts.

trco
Satan believes in Jesus too

R ford

These comments about religion getting out of politics are typical elitist BS. They are already two separate entities and are NOT exclusive, being in one does not exclude one from being in the other. Of course, a lot of liberals are espousing free speech - only if it agrees with THEIR position. This, of course, is more elitist BS.

Some of the other posts seem to foster the "two wrongs making a right" theory. There are absolutes, whether you like it or not. Congregants do NOT determine what is right or wrong. God's word is not negotiable nor up for a vote. While man certainly is a sinner and makes interpretations (sometimes wrong), killing babies is NOT an acceptable "choice", it is murder.

I see the ridiculous argument comparing war or capital punishment with abortion. To that I say - show me where and how a baby ever deserved even a consideration of being killed. Did they kill someone? Did they rape someone? Did they crash an airliner into a building killing 3000? Did they shoot someone?

Once you sell your soul, you have nothing left to offer.

religion is HOOEY. yes period it serves no purpose other than to explain what the ignorant do not understand, religion is most distasteful for me, and those that believe in a magic sky gawd? still waiting for him to Come On Down and tell me he is cool, of course you will collapse my post because it offends you because your magic guy is not here, it does not EXIST and if you think it does PROVE IT

Well ND has lost all it's respect, the catholic Church stands for nothing, otherwise the president of the college would have been removed weeks ago. My only question is, what amount of money is ND getting for giving up all it's moralls? Money? Federal grants from Obama? Wonder if they will dare pray while the president is there?

Sounds like you, and most of the others are about to hold your breath and have a tantrum. Do you know how many students there are having sex and taking drugs and not living up to your moral standards for them. The faculty as well. Are you so naive you think that people don't sin, or are they just supposed to sin and hide it really well like most church people do. That place is a school not a monastery!

The students and people there that are interested in learning and experiencing many aspects of life have a chance to listen to the first black president come and speak to them. Get a grip, it is a place of learning, a school, not a confessional, or a temple, or the most holy of holies!

hobb,

I believe there is satan but don't believe in his teachings. And fortunately I and my family believe in an eternal life after our time in this life.

Using the word fetus is not a justification for ending a baby's life. I have never seen a woman give birth to a jeep.

Advocates for abortion have their heads screwed on wrong. You are just plain sick if you think that taking the innocent life is justified by the mother's "choice." Once a child is conceived, man has no right in destroying that life. Using abortion as a method of birth control is one of the worst things a person can do! It is selfish and it is murder no matter how you try to justify it.

The Catholic Bishops are totally correct in taking a stance against Obama giving the commencement speech. He doesn't belong there! Now Obamaites will disagree because they worship his lame ass, but the man is pro-abortion and his head isn't screwed on right either. I'm not catholic but I am definitely pro-life and I feel these Bishops are totally in their rights to protest the obamination speech.

A couple of things; Notre Dame hires faculty on an academic basis and not a religious basis.
It is all about the academics, and Barack Obama more than qualifies in this area.
Also, the author of the article wrote that this Admin. is "pro-abortion", which is misleading. The correct description would have been 'pro-choice'.

My family was irish catholic and i never met any one who did not believe in helping a poor person or family from any background whatsoever. The most beloved priests were always the ones who put family problems before any kind of dogma. We now know from bitter experience that when we outlaw or punish abortion, countless women from every socio-economic group die doing it themselves and without hospital care, as they have down the centuries.

President Obama is a Harvard Graduate. Do you really think he cares about some 'honorary' degree from Notre Dame? Does anyone?

Let's leave the judgement to our higher powers on judgement day. The way you treat and judge others now, will be how you are judged in the end. This is the one truth that transcends all religions and people, including athiests (for them: perhaps there is no judgement).

Personally, it is wrong to extend an invitation and then rescind it based on a religious ideal. My God judges me on how I treat others, no matter their views. He judges me strictly on MY actions and re-actions. I can and will never include or exclude someone based solely on their beliefs. Extremists are corroding the core value of humanity. Extremism comes in many forms, some more obvious than others. Separation of Church and Sate is vital to continue the freedoms we have. Without it we cease to be free.

You can only hurt yourself by judging others.

Do I care who is a Harvard graduate? Do you?

Are you impressed if someone graduated from Harvard AND Yale? Are you?

Then you must be in love with George Bush.

This also has NOTHING to do with separation of church and state. When you expect a church to violate their principals, then YOU are on the wrong side.

When the government requires doctors that have sworn to protect life, and hold that belief strongly, to participate in abortions (sound familiar?), then the "state" has interfered in private and possibly religious affairs.

Thank you!!! It is unusual for a catholic to speak up, but to have a noncatholic is a amazing! I don't know if you are Christian or not, but thanks again!!!!!!!!

I don't like honorary degrees either, they make no sense to me. Wonder what the job market for honorary degrees is. Anyway, Pres. Obama has been saying that he will not tolerate torture of any kind, okay then let me see, what does he call abortions, so they are not torture? They are not abuse? Sure, he was most likely talking about the enemy, they cannot be tortured to gain information for our country, but little innocent babies/fetuses or whatever people choose to call unborn babies, are being killed now with the permission of Pres. Obama, they are not the enemy, but they are being tortured. Very confusing.

the fraudulent religious institutions have got to go ! this is the 21st century and superstitions should be in the past !
Secularism is one of the key to world peace. When will people get it ?

It has nothing to do with religion but with the respect for life. Abortion should be between a women (and her personal beliefs) and her physician. Obama condones and SUPPORTS the taking of life in late term when the fetus or in utero infant would be viable. Late term is 7 to 9 months. Many fetuses are saved through modern interventions when they are born prematurely at 6 or 7 months. Yet Obama condones abortions at this late stage (his Ill. voting record supports this if you research it). He condones letting an infant die if aborted alive at this late stage. How as a nation can we have 2 values? if a man murders a pregnant woman he can be charged with taking the life(murder) of a woman and of an infant but if a doctor takes the life a infant in utero it's OK? This is not a law of legality but a law of convenience. Obama is an embrassament to those who RESPECT life. He is a self-serving politician as all the other Congressmen who have been there in Congress for an extended period. Notre Dame should be ashamed for taking this stance. Personally, I am against abortion. Life is life. There are means available to prevent pregnancy including abstinence.

Maybe the bishops should let Protestant Christians take the lead on the anti-abortion struggle. After all, Protestants do not have the baggage of institutional genocide (the Crusades) or pedophilia weighing them down.

"Obama riles bishops", and child molesting priests rile all moral standards. Quite frankly, I don't know why the President would even consider a speech at Notre Dame. It's a crap school with a bunch of over-privileged "rightie-whities".

Last time I looked Obama earned several degrees and neither of them were honorary. Could this also be a partisan issue for most of those who oppose the President of the United States receiving an honorary degree from one of this nation's top universities? Were all you who oppose his appearance as outspoken about the years of sexual abuse of Catholic children by many of this nation's priests? It would be interesting to see if you were as concerned about those living as you are with the unborn. I find this intolerance of differing viewpoints the reason the Republican Party can be described as an organization with "diminished capacity."

Their Rights: Although this obviously has more agenda to it than is outwardly apparent, Obama should simply bow out and let them have their day. It's their church and school. Separation of church and state goes both ways. Its their right to exclude all other peoples and religious beliefs from access to their property or participation in a their awards process.

My Rights: Exclusion equals extinction and, to me, violates many more parts of what christianity is all about than this or other issues do. So now I choose to ignore them as irrelevant.

There is no god, never was, and the moral law we should all be following should be based on contemporary human ideas.  The church should realize its own mythology, admit it is and should be a dead institution, and endorse smarter ways to participate in human society.

LOL, the Catholic Church wishes that it still controlled governments as they did in the Dark Ages, keeping the people ignorant and obedient to their doctrine. If they cared so much for humanity these hypocrites should take all the wealth from the Vatican and feed the hungry. If they had shown such resolve in Germany during the time of Hitler then perhaps they could have legitimately garnered some respect, but all they did was make sure of their own survival under a tyrant.

How about going after priests who molest little boys as fervently as you attack President Obama

Peter - I am amazed at your faith! In fact you have more faith than I do, and I believe in God! It takes pure faith to not believe in God, considering there are so many things surrounding us that prove His existance. I commend you!

Add me to that list of those who do not believe in gods. I don't see anything in all the wonderment of the world that proves the existence of one either. Your facetious condescension does nothing to promote your opinion as truth, Brianb-999431.

I'm Catholic and i DON'T support obama, and a lot of my friends (both Catholic and Non-Catholic) don't either. I cannot wait until his presidency end.

That college hasn't been "Catholic" or supportive of the Church's teachings for 25 years. Power, Ego, Pride are the tenets of their faith. I'm glad the Bishops are speaking out. They have been too silent, too long. You can't be a Christian unless you are willing to teach the truths of Jesus Christ. BTW - I'm a ROMAN Catholic.

When in doubt Google!!!! What is the uproar? read the following :

MISSION:

The University of Notre Dame is a Catholic academic community of higher learning, animated from its origins by the Congregation of Holy Cross. The University is dedicated to the pursuit and sharing of truth for its own sake. As a Catholic university, one of its distinctive goals is to provide a forum where, through free inquiry and open discussion, the various lines of Catholic thought may intersect with all the forms of knowledge found in the arts, sciences, professions, and every other area of human scholarship and creativity.

The intellectual interchange essential to a university requires, and is enriched by, the presence and voices of diverse scholars and students. The Catholic identity of the University depends upon, and is nurtured by, the continuing presence of a predominant number of Catholic intellectuals. This ideal has been consistently maintained by the University leadership throughout its history. What the University asks of all its scholars and students, however, is not a particular creedal affiliation, but a respect for the objectives of Notre Dame and a willingness to enter into the conversation that gives it life and character. Therefore, the University insists upon academic freedom that makes open discussion and inquiry possible.

The University prides itself on being an environment of teaching and learning that fosters the development in its students of those disciplined habits of mind, body, and spirit that characterize educated, skilled, and free human beings. In addition, the University seeks to cultivate in its students not only an appreciation for the great achievements of human beings but also a disciplined sensibility to the poverty, injustice and oppression that burden the lives of so many. The aim is to create a sense of human solidarity and concern for the common good that will bear fruit as learning becomes service to justice.

So why all the fuse? he's not going to talk about abortion or even sell the idea.

If passion drives you, let reason hold the reins.
Benjamin Franklin

Again, it's too bad that the Catholic bishops have nothing better to do than complain. Did we somehow solve the crisis of AIDS and hunger and poverty in the last two days when I wasn't looking??
'Tis a shame for this country, one of the highest learning facilities and the students to have this kind of idiotic debate; the President is a well educated person and Notre Dame is a good school......nuff said!!

Perhaps if the Catholic Church would stop holding it's hands over their ears and yelling, "Blah blah blah we can't hear you", they'd be better serviced by taking their hands off their ears and inviting discussion.

This is how issues get resolved. Granted that doesn't mean anyone will change their position especially on such a hot topic as abortion. But there is common ground to be found anywhere if you look hard enough.

On this subject I'd say prevention of abortion is the common ground and should be an intended goal. But they won't even give a little even on that. Their stance on prevention of unwanted pregnancies is entirely too rigid and works against their goal of ending abortions.

Meghan, who cares about you or your friends? So don't vote for him. Shouting about it with caps just makes you sound immature and insecure. Obviously your guy didn't win and you are just a sore loser. Get over it. You'll have your opportunity to vote again in less than four years. That's how this democracy/republic works.

JMJ is it part of Jesus' teachings to protect child rapists and give them access to more children to rape? If not then the catholic church hasn't been in touch with Jesus for quite some time now.

In view of the fact that the Church covered for their pedophile priests, I don't even take them seriously anymore. I especially find it hypocritical that the Church has such a big issue with birth control in 3rd world countries...when they are nowhere to be found when it comes to feeding and taking care of those hungry, unwanted and impoverished kids. I also wish to point out that the Vatican assisted Nazi war criminals in eluding justice by providing safe-houses and passports. In these challenging times when we're dealing with wars, keeping a job, a home, and food on the table, you'd think the Church would have the guts to address the issues that the peasants truly concern themselves with. Hey, if you don't want an abortion then don't get one...and stay out of another woman's business if she feels she needs to terminate her pregnancy.

Notre Dame is defying a 2004 bishops' statement on politics that says: "The Catholic community and Catholic institutions should not honor those who act in defiance of our fundamental moral principles. They should not be given awards, honors or platforms which would suggest support for their actions."

That is the issue. Nothing else.

All of you are Full of @!$%# bigots looking for anything to hurl at Obama. Notre Dame then should not seek any federal, state money for anything. Roman Catholicism has no legal bearing in the US government. Catholic schools are the public trough like every other school. The Catholic position on sex, marriage and pregnantcy has no merit since their clergy are celibate and spend their adult lives trying to avoid sexual contact with 'women.' Their leaders were either celibate or left their families. Its absolute nonsense to consider any position The Vatican has on these topics by people who are sexual and live in the real world.

I wish they were this outraged when they caught their priests molesting kids. Or at the previous administration for torture- maybe they feel that don't have the high ground on that one, since their people used it during the Inquisition- and warmongering. Or maybe they could focus on the insane greed that led, in part, to the economic collapse- maybe kind of hard to criticize that from their opulent city. Or they could minister to the sick and take a leading role in supporting healthcare reform- oh wait, they only care about embryos, not thinking human beings with consciousness and feelings. Or they could stop spreading destructive info about HIV and condom use in Africa. Nice priorities.

Exactly right SGB. Having grown up in a very catholic environment, and attended 12 years of parochial schools, I still can't get the stench of cathohlic hypocricy out of my nostrals. Talk about splinters and planks, to have the conference of catholic bishops to rant rave about abortion while the STILL stonewalling on the MASSIVE pedophile rings WITHIN the Church priesthood (and in catholicism, 'Church' means the priesthood, while 'church' means the laity) and that's not mentioniing their filthy hypocricy on 'fertility' clinics, where the are more 'abortions' (embryos not used which are simply discarded) than at any 'abortion' clinic - standard catholic thinking being, as long as the purpose is to produce 'babies' the sacrifce of 20-30 for one is acceptable. This 'stand' by the bishops is a load of putrid horsesh-t and most lay catholics know it.

Koobee you have to be a complete moron.

Separation of church and state - that's all that needs to be said. Universities are not supposed to be education vessels that narrow the mind.

You know how upset ND is at having Obama speak? If you can't listen to a speech by the President of the United States, you are not a worthy organization.

In fact - If the university continues this drama - get their sports teams the hell out of the Big East!

Yes - if they wish to politicize their views, then they should revert back to paying taxes.

Obama is the president, and has defended the right to have religious diversity and tolerance. Each of us can believe as we choose, and our government may not impose any one way on others. I don't believe in the Pope or counting rosary beads, but do not scorn or ban Catholics who do. I am a Christian, but believe in the Beatitudes. I think some Catholics who try to elevate themselves falsely should perform a few foot washings, stop trying to judge others, and maybe give these comments another reading.

Notre Dame is supposed to be an institution of higher learning. One cannot really learn to think unless a student learns about ALL views, and learns to respect thoughtful- albeit contrary - opinions.

This is not the counter-Reformation, and I believe Jesus was very clear about institutional churches needing to be wary of their own arrogance and worldliness. Making money off football so students can be educated in a narrow-minded curriculum was hardly the vision he had when he threw the money-changers out of the temple. If Notre Dame alumni are worried about government policy - they had better get out of the business of judging others.

Amen to that Joe [Madden]. Didn't someone once say: "Give Ceasar what is Ceasar'ss due"?? Wasn't that individual the same person the Romans crucified on the tree of the Holy Cross and also who the Pope suppsedly represents? In this country, there is supposed be be separation between church and state; it's even in the Constitution. I look upon the Bishops indignaiton as the epitome of hypocrasy. I once read that: A civilization [even a church] built4 upon ignorance and perpetuated by ignorance is collapsing uner the weight of ignorance.

Separation of church and state. That is what the Dem's or the ACLU constantly scream about. Why aren't they screaming bloody murder over this? Oh, wait a minute it's a democrat in the W.H. and now it is ok. Anybody see the double standard here? Wonder if Pelosi will be there? Then the irony will be complete, I am not a Catholic and I cannot understand ND's decision on this one.

Shouldn't one question the validity of the statement - "Separation of church and state"? Afterall - How can religion bow out of politics when so damn many politicians can't can't seem to do likewise? Case in point - Practically every politician uses religion to serve their own purpose when trying to garner votes. Political posturing uses religion as a tool. It's hypocracy at it's finest moments. And one of those finest moments is about to show itself again when Mr. Obama accepts an 'Honorary' Degree from predominantly Catholic Notre Dame University shortly after he announced to the world during his Magical Mystery Tour that the United States of America was not a Christian nation. Domini, Domini fool hearty!

What a bunch of hooey - Notre Dame is a private institution and can invite whomever they choose to speak, and it is very odd that they would choose a pro-death speaker, but that's what they did.

Separation of church and state is not in the constitution.

No one is shoving any view down anyone's throat - the Catholic Church has every right to have beliefs, and their beliefs are not political. Republicans, Democrats, Independents and others are both pro-life and pro-death, so again, this issue has no political affiliation.

Those that hate the Catholics will pile on here, but this really is just an odd decision for a private Catholic institution.

"Religions should bow out of politics completely. If they don't, can't they lose their tax free status?"

Of course, that may cause problems for all the "reverends" involved in black politics. And, all the visits to black churches by candidates, which are always covered by the press.

I didn't think "religion" signed the constitution and became a party to that document. I do know the politicians signed it, stating they would not mandate a national religion or meddle with peoples religion.

To interpret that there would be a legal prohibition against one discussing a politician with my clergy is hypocritical and self serving to any government that acknowledges separation of church and state. In other words, the government dictates what I can and cant say or who I can or cant speak to regarding religion?

Religion hugely influences a persons moral compass. I have a right to confer with my clergy about morality. I have a right to ask my clergy about the morals or lack of morals of someone who I will let influence my life, such as a politician. After gaining that information, it is for me to decide how much weight to give the church's position.

The Church, as any other, should stand by its principles. And it should provide appropriate guidance to any educational institution that purports to subscribe to those same principles. If it does not do so, it is failing its mission. The same would be true of Yeshiva or Brigham Young.

so let me get this straight - no one who's pro-choice is allowed to speak, but the Church will shuffle around however many priests are involved in "scandals" with minor children, and continue to allow them access to an adoring flock? Talk about having your standards all screwed up.....

A lot of folks confuse what the "separation of church and state" letter by Jefferson, which is often cited, was referencing---it was the possible influence of the government on religion, NOT the possible influence of religion on the government.

BIG difference.

And you are a total idiot. Take your racism back to the KKK site.

Cholla -

You are an idiot - you say the same things over and over and over again on all the threads you post on. Knock it off. You are boring.

Religions need to speak for the babies!!! The democrats don't!!!!

From the posts I've read here so far. Religion is speaking for the babies, I can't find a thinking adult among any of them.

JoMan,

What are you talking about?

Cholla, I am going to break my vow of keeping tongue between teeth, when it comes to you, and note you are an ass and a racist to boot from the tone of your mindless drivel.

On the other hand the question is can an ass can be racist? hmmmm Perhaps I should have said that you are a mentally difficient twit with issues. LOL

Your mindless racist chatter and always finding some way of blaming President Obama for everything to including, from the tone of your mutterings, whether the sun shines or not is just annoying and brings nothing intelligent to the conversation.

Frankly if I am banned from Newsvine for what I have noted then so be it. Enough already, change the 8 track.

He said, maybe the Dingo ate your baby!

Have you ever considered, that perhaps proper english isn't about talking points or having a bishop tell you what to hear and say. Bow your heads and BAAAHHH with me...

I wouldn't even call ND a university...sounds more like a private cult, not too far from a certain Branch Davidian sect. The only difference is Waco vs. South Bend. Do the clergy still believe the sun revolves around earth? Wake the f up

Uuuuuum replicator5, what are you talking about????? Notre Dame's decision is to have the president speak and it is the Bishop's that are raising the stink. I am not sure what you mean by "I am not a Catholic and I cannot understand ND's decision on this one. "

Capt Tripps, you are completely right. They will staunchly defend their own pedophiles to the point of criminal liability, aiding and abetting child rape and molestation. It has to make you wonder if they just want more babies for their priests to rape.

Unfortunately, most of them find many loopholes which prevent them from being caught sticking their noses in politics where they have no business being!!
If we went to paying taxes, think how much more accountable they'd be; it'd be the best thing for all!!

Mabtle,
Like many others you, are misinformed about the recorded voting for late-term abortion. This unanimous vote was made by republicans and democrats alike at the table. They were placed in a rock and hard-place position and finally voted the only way they could, which is to save the life of the Mother. They decided to protect the Mother's life in the event of rare circumstances.

Suggest you not attempt to demonise any of the individuals who voted on this issue.

Given a choice, would not we all wish that abortion was NOT a reality in our time? But if we make it illegal, women from all socio-economic backgrounds will die doing their own abortions, as they have for centuries.

To Backhouse

"A lot has been made of the ideals of Martin Luther King in light of the inauguration of the first black President. What would the legendary civil rights campaigner have thought of Obama’s action to ensure funding for the abortion of black babies? Here’s what his niece, Dr. Alveda King had to say about the matter at a conference last August."

“The great irony,” she said, “is that abortion has done what the Klan only dreamed of.”

King stated that the killing of a quarter of the black population of the US has not been from the lynch mobs of her childhood days, but from abortionists, “who plant their killing centers in minority neighborhoods and prey upon women who think they have no hope.”

To koobee,

Out of context quotes obfuscate the real issue, which i carefully explicated above.
This kind of fantasy constructed by your mind does nothing to forward the discussion.

spike-322306, ah the lies about what Jefferson meant. Considering Jefferson is the closest (aside from Lincoln) we ever got to electing an atheist president, and EVERY BLOODY SINGLE WRITING Jefferson ever made on this issue CLEARLY states his opinion that churchs and religions should stay the hell out ALL politics, I'd say your canard on waht Jefferson REALLY meant is one more lying piece of rightwing voodoo witchdoctor nonsense spewing out of the mouths of credulous cretins and believers in the tooth fairy.

A week in the pokey for Cholla? Geez, I hope I dont ever post anything twice. Also I won't say Obama "hates good people", but at least I know I can cut and paste the "non-personal" attacks from 2.13, 2.14 and 2.18

They all probably voted for Pelosi too.

The number of Catholics who voted for Obama is more likely an indication that many who profess to be Catholic are not. They may have been raised Catholic, but never really learned what their Faith was all about. When asked their religion, they say "Catholic", but they don't follow or agree with all the teachings of the Church. For Catholics, in matters of faith and morals, it's all or nothing. To go off on your own path is, by definition, to be protestant.

Whether Protestant or Catholic, when it comes to issue of life, they should all be in agreement. I would seriously question the logic of any religion who can accept the pro-abortion agenda.

Well, anyway, maybe the clergy would feel more comfortable inviting him to speak to the members of the late and unlamented St. Peter Claver Society.

I see.

Well, there is no stigma attached to being called a catholic, as opposed to, say, not having a religion.

I guess surveys substantially underestimate the number of the irreligious, then? That is 15%, by the way. But if we add all the catholics-in-name-only, as OLV suggests...

I think that it's important to note that there is no PRO-ABORTION agenda. Also note that many who are PRO-LIFE are also PRO-CHOICE. PRO-CHOICE leaves the decision to the pregnant woman if she wants to carry to term or terminate the pregnancy (abortion).

This is a WOMAN'S decision about what's best for her health and circumstances. The law is such that a woman has the right to make that decision. Wouldn't you want your daughter to have a choice?

Younger people in all religions are more tolerant these days in fact the numbers that Obama got in the south with younger evangelicals was surprising. More and more religious people that are younger first think of their own welll being and their family's first and their religion does not make them vote for people just because they ring a religious bell and are not good for the country. The times they are a changing. Time for all religious neanderthals to take notice.

So, pro-choice means more than choosing to kill your child? It also means choosing whatever is best for my health and my circumstances, regardless of the impact on others, right? So, if my neighbor has a nicer car than me, it should be my choice to take it for myself. If I could use a big HD TV, I should be allowed to go to the store and take one without paying for it. If a man sees an attractive woman, and he's in the mood, why not go for it, whether she wants to or not? I think I see the logic of the "pro-choice" position. So, if I'd rather not be inconvenienced by a pregnancy and a child, why not just snuff it out? It all makes sense now!

United We Stand, what about the other party in the equation? Everyone talks about "it's a woman's choice". What about that person who never asked to be conceived? Who never gets the opportunity to decide whether to live or die? Who never gets a chance to even find out what he could contribute to society?

No, "it's a woman's choice to decide." She made a choice. She had sex. With someone else. And BOTH of them contributed DNA to another person. The unborn child that you are so willing to say is a mass of tissue with no rights.

This is NOT some tumor of hers. It is a completely unique individual that she is killing. Her rights ended when she made the choice to have sex and got pregnant. Just as your rights end where mine begin, and vice versa, her rights end where another person's--that unborn DNA package--begin.

The ones I feel sorry for, and the ones with the toughest decisions to make, are the girls who are pregnant because of rape, or the ones who know their child is destined to have health and development problems. But even there, how do you decide that any sort of life is worse than death? Who says that problems mean joylessness? What makes you decide that person would think she was better off dead? HOW can you decide that? But my heart goes out to them, even while I think they are wrong in ending such a pregnancy.

I find it so funny that so many people are for a "Woman's Right To Choose," but against the Death Penalty. That's like telling someone, "Bud, if you just make it through the pregnancy, then you're a person and they'll fight to keep you alive. It's a tough job, but you can do it."

What hypocrisy.

Choice?

We have choices every day.

Choosing coffee over Coke is a choice.

Choosing a Ford over a Honda is a choice.

Choosing to have (unprotected) sex is a choice.

Choosing to kill a baby is murder. Your choices define you, don't they?

Don't give me the incest, rape, "health of the mother", argument either. Those have been shown statistically to be in the single digit percentages, usually less than 2%.

If its wrtten,I've read it.

If its written, I've read it

Ageed! Well written.

Larry, you are certainly an expert on how a woman in poverty feels or a 13 year old raped by a family member feels ....

Count on a man to come up with this absolutist baloney.

Back to the topic at hand - Obama is against abortion for himself and his family. He simply feels there needs to be a right for each American to choose for themself, as he has. This is not a dictatorship...not yet.

The constitution protects the minority (the 2%, Larry). It is not a majority takes-all system of law. Don't like it, don't let the door...now I'm sounding like a Republidiot.

I get that some Catholics & Evangelicals are pro-breed to the point of hating homosexuals (because that would be anti-breeding), condoms and other birth control (again, anti-breeding) and abortion (ditto). Who am I kidding most of these church ladies are pro-breed.

Even though I am a straight guy and would rather do her in the bung-holio, I am just another enemy to the church that continues to push themselves further into a corner. BAAAHHH with me, oh baaahhh, mighty baaahhh, forgive me of my baaahhh; smurfs.

So many enemies. If I do get a chick pregnant, I wish there was some way I could tell if it was the second coming of the flying spaghetti monster, so that WE could get an abortion and abort IT.

The Constitution protects ALL life, not just democrats.

Don't like it ? Tough.

United

Pro-choice is a lie. The Roe vs. Wade was a set up.

Pro-choice is a false term. The correct term is pro-termination. Pro-death. Pro-Adolf.

A purpose of a womb is to incubate life.

Have you ever watched an abortion? What do you think is happening?

Pro-choice will no longer be an issue in the United States when mandatory sterilization is the rule of the land.

Pro-choice will no longer exist. Your family line will be terminated for you.

Well, OLV, I spent TWELVE YEARS 'learning' catholic theology, and spent a good deal of that time teaching my idiot religion instructors their own voodoo and fairytales. In fact, screwing with the idiot priests and nuns who tried to teach that blithering bullsh-t to me was one of the few things that kept me IN high school, the entertainment value was just too good to pass up. So don't tell me you sanctimonious piece of horsecr-p that i don't know my 'faith', I knew it better than the morons who tried to teach it to me.

Roy: Pick out which one answers your question. [1] It is usually a fact that the wisest person is the one who ends the argument with silence. [2] Never compete with a fool, because you will never gain anything except to become like them.

Roy The same reason he wants to give rights to the terrorists. The same reason he let Chrysler go bankrupt and blamed the bond holders. The same reason he bowed to a king. The same reason he told the terrorists how the Us got terrorist secrets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why should the President respond to the silliness of a few in the Catholic community? Also those who invited him knew they would get flack and did it anyway. I think he wouldn't want to disappoint them and their effort. The great thing about the President, is that he does not back down from a challenge, particularly ideological challenges. We mustn't forget Obama taught Constitutional law. I think he is always aware of opportunities to continue the debate about citizens rights, church rights and how we have to learn to tolerate differing viewpoints. He suggests we must learn to agree to disagree!

Amen !     I just logged on to make a similar comment and saw yours.   Maybe the Bishops should be spending more time keeping their priests ( and themselves) from molesting children instead of getting involved in politics.

Amen is right; Celibacy is downright weird and unnatural; invented by the HRCC in the 11th century to protect church property

MM-584706 is dead on target and why I am no longer a Catholic. The Catholics scream about the evils of pro-choice, but molesting children is OK as long as no one complains.

It's OK to have a President speak, who lied to get us into a war which has ended the lives of some of our more precious people. How exactly does the church justify that? No abortion rights, but molesting children and killing our next generation is OK. Huh????

That is pure B*>>S**t. Talk about hypocrites, the Bishops, Priest, and anyone who agree with them are astounding.

Soooooo, saying that one person commits a sin makes all other sins OK? There are sinners in every walk of life, and I agree it is wrong.

If Notre Dame invited a known molester to give a speech, would you care?

If Notre Dame invited a known murderer to give a speech, would you care?

Advocating one position really does not say anything about another.

I think the comment about not getting into arguments with fools applies to Larry in Multiple Sclerosis. Can you speak without quoting sentences from a book of fairy tales. Feels like I am listening to Lord of the Rings, ya elf freak.

Joman makes no sense. Keep posting, it really helps the cause.

Now if you could attempt to answer even one of the questions posed.........

Naaaah - that couldn't happen.

You must live in Austin.

The above string of comments represent the most ignorant statements I've read of NewsVine. I agree that some of the bishops handled the situation of priests molesting children (almost all were teens, so we're dealing with homosexuality, not pedophilia), but it certainly was not considered acceptable by the Church. The number of priests involved in these evil acts was ~1%, about 1/2 of what other religions (with married pastors) experience.

The comments on capital punsihment and war are not valid either. Both of these are allowable in certain circumstances. Abortion, on the other hand, is an instrinsic evil. There is never a situation that can justify the killing an an innocent unborn child.

Right.

Well Cardinal Law just kept protecting such priests, and he was given a job at the Vatican once he resigned. The "Church" didn't seem to have a serious problem with that.

By the way, the fact that the victims were of different ages not withstanding, weren't many of them females? And why does that even matter? Does that somehow make it justifiable?

As for capital punishment being allowable-well, if OLV knows bettern than the Pope, that's fine with me.

The comments on capital punsihment and war are not valid either. Both of these are allowable in certain circumstances

So tell us when god changed the commandment that says thou shalt not kill!

It does not say except in war or if you are convicted of murder. Vengence is mine sayeth the lord.

OLV,

Did I read that right? Did you just call a sex act with an unwilling minor homosexuality??? I call that RAPE! But that's Catholic justification for you.

If you have acccess to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, you can read what the Church teaches about capital punishment. There are circumstances when it can be allowable. The pope said that in this modern era, this would be rare. Whether allowable or not, it has never been put on a par with the "intrinsic evil of abortion" which is never acceptable or justified.

tex,

Were you in Iraq? If not then you should shut your pie hole. Why because your beloved liberals voted to go to war in Iraq based on the same info President Bush had.

How many attacks since 9/11?

OLV,

Pope John Paul II spoke against the war in Iraq. So did many of the Cardinals and Archbishops. They considered it unjustified.

The abortion issue is largely a problem of the definition of a human being. The pro-choice group is made up of people with many different beliefs, but most pro-choice supporters simply don't subscribe to the ideology that a zygote (fertilized egg) is a person. They believe that it can eventually become a person under the right conditions, but they're clear that at that early stage, it is little more than a bunch of cells. When you don't believe that a zygote is a person, then naturally the idea of killing a zygote is not murder. So in order to convince someone in the pro-choice that abortion is murder, you have to get them to believe that a zygote is a person.

Talk about zygotes all you want, but tell me what is the result of a fertilized human egg if man or circumstances (other than abortion) don't intervene? It is a human being, not a bundle of socks. You act like if I planted a tulip bulb, it might turn out to be a Chevy.

Also tell me how that applies to those "pro-choice" people that support mid-to-late term abortions?

Obama is doing a good job on starting a new war

Attacks since 9/11? I would ask, how many attacks foiled since 9/11...the answer is a couple that we know of...ever since people in general removed the thumbs from you know where.

Lets face it, since 9/11 people have been a bit more alert...makes sense. It just happened to be a reaction to the gaping defense hole the previous administration was responsible for.

Now we get to spend four years retrieving our PTS'd troops and defending the country, sans thumbs. Perhaps Ed Schultz was right...Chaney wants another attack (on someone else's watch this time). Sounds like more eye-for-an-eye biblical crap.

On the abortion issue, it would behove men to just shut up about it, as usually their opinions are not the deciding factor. Seeing that they ( all men ) are not the ones getting pregnant then they have no say imo. Thus it is in their best interest not to interfere with a woman's right to chose imo.

I wonder how many blokes would willingly practice abstainance or perhaps have the old snip snip? LOL

Wonder if taking Viagra or the use of the many male enhancements pills, potions and devices is a sin......yet? LOL

I used to think that one went to university to expand the mind, learn to think critically, to be able to question, discuss etc any and everything freely, learn about/practice a little thing like tolerance and respect for others and other points of view....... Obviously not so at some unis in this country. LOL

Wonder why corporations etc keep outsourcing jobs abroad complaining that there are not enough educated folks here? Could it be that these bizzez are unimpressed by folks who are unable to have original thought or are unable to think for themselves or think outside the box? Hmmm LOL

Right on, Texas Mike

Boy, OLV, you really are one of those facist opus dei little boy molesting creeps aren't you? I know your slimy type, spent most of the first 20 years of my life combatting your idiocies and hypocricies and lies, and then came to realize that talking buckets of puke like you need to be shut down, hard. You can't reason with true banal evil, you can only stamp it out like a cockroach.

RJ: Bowing to a dwarf will not prevent you from standing ereat.

Silence on the subject is saying more than anyone could say. The Catholics scream and our very classy President says nothing. WOW.

His silence says more than the Bishops could ever say.

Sure...he's an expert on remaining silent but let's not confuse that with class or character. He sat in silence for Jeremiah Wright for 20 years. And rather than take a stand on tough issues, he voted "present" countless times in the Senate. About as decisive and steadfast as a weather vane.

Oh here we go with that dead crap again.

BTW he cannot vote present in the Senate it is not allowed he did that in the Illinois Senate.

Also FYI a present vote is a correct vote when you generally agree with the premise of the bill before you but cannot agree with it in its present form. It is a signal to the people who brought it to the floor that with certain changes you can possibly vote for it. A perfectly acceptable tactic and a wise one where it is permitted. Some creep who did not know what he was talking about jumped on that one way back when Obama got the nomination. I am surprised anybody still has that in their cut and paste folder.

shewolf,

yep, he's classy allright. half his cabinet are tax cheats. Birds of a feather, flock together.

dacincykid (emphasis on "kid")

"dead crap"? How appropriate.

You did not address the "Rev Wright" issue, I guess it's kinda hard to defend, huh?

And Rick wrote "Senate", you did read that, huh? You even pointed out Illinois SENATE? Where he DID vote present a lot.

A "Present" vote says I am here, but I am unwilling to take a side. It shows an inability to answer a yes or no question. It allows one to NOT take a position that can be tallied and pointed to later. It is NOTHING else. I am surprised you buy into the crap you wrote.

Larry Thank You

Absolutist crap. If the bill is gray, the answer is gray. Insert a picture of a famous Vodka bottle in an outhouse in Mississippi

Nice contribution datadon. That was pretty much a "present" post.

Frank Lighten up! There is no god. Many people have abortions AND children and are great parents (well, better than your anyway)

Please have your physician up the dose on your meds Frank.

Frank,

Women who don't want children rarely use abortion as birth control!

Women who don't want children should be neutered like a dog. Then they wouldn't have to murder a child because they are too selfish to accept the responsibility for creating another life.

Frank said:

It's ludicrous even discussing what another person wants to do with their OWN bodies. Inalienable rights we as Americans call it, and these kinds of decisions should be left up to their own consciences and consequences.

So, if you annoy me, should I have the "Choice" to murder you? Would that be my "inalienable right" to do with my body?

Your other assertions are all stupid.

Oh, and United - some women DO use abortion as birth control. It's not that uncommon to find cases where women are having their umpteenth abortion. Even though preventing pregnancy is extremely easy now, and the government will even pay for it if you can't afford it, there are a lot of women that are either too lazy or too stupid to practice it.

No attacks this time...hey maybe, no, it won't spread.

Does anyone have any percentages of Vasectomy procedures before breeding vs. after breeding? Based on the posted commentaries of so many experts, I'm really starting to think I better not bring some rug rats into this world.

And the way things are going, it won't be long until someone (the pro-breeders) want to ban it as well.

Go ND!,

Beautifully written.  Thank you. 

I was raised a Catholic.  I became uncomfortable with the dogma, doctrine, and rigidity of the chuch - not to mention their Middle Ages mentality (my opinion).  If the view of the church had been more in line with those that you just expressed (i.e. a more tolerant and pragmatic view of our diverse world), I might still be a practicing Catholic. 

Best wishes.

Mike H

Go ND, Great reply!

As you stated, this president is not going to be there talking about abortion rights, but rather to give students tips on how to be successful in life, and he's the prime example.

Both ND and our president would be remiss if they reneged on this now historical event made so by a bunch of trite bishops and their followers.

I, as a protestant, grew up in predominately catholic town and 90% of my friends were catholic. I attended their church as they did mine and what I found fascinating was their saturday confession which seemed to lead to more of the same on monday.

Nevertheless, I still believe in Jesus, but about 60years ago, I became a life-long agnostic due to many of the blogs I see here today. Cheers!

ND would not have had to disallow The Abortion President because he didn't ask to come there. He was invited by their misguided President Jenkins. How would it look if the offer were rescinded now? It would look like ND regarded their Catholicity more highly than the prestige of having a sitting U.S. president speak there. Did you notice that President Clinton didn't speak there? There isn't a very good excuse to have Obama speak there during Commencement, but the absolutely ridiculous decision was to have him receive an honorary law degree.

The Church has remained consistent on matters of faith and morals since it was founded by Jesus Christ in 33 A.D. The day the Church changes its fundamental principles is the day we can be sure that it is no longer guided by the Holy Spirit, but then, that would be contrary to what the Bible promises ( . . . and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it).

OLV,

Please get your historical facts straight - after all you seem to be a Christian. You should at least be expected to discuss the historical origins of your belief system accurately. The Church has NOT "remained consistent on matters of faith and morals since it was founded by Jesus Christ in 33 AD".

As a matter of fact, there were many conflicting versions of "Christianity" after Christ's death. The followers of each of these versions believed that theirs was the true belief system. It wasn't until about 325 AD that the Council of Nicea was convened by the Roman Emperor, Constantine, with the specific goal of declaring which of these competing beliefs would be declared the "orthodox" beliefs of Christianity.

You also stated that "The day the Church changes its fundamental principles is the day we can be sure that it is no longer guided by the Holy Spirit". The Church didn't even establish its fundamental (orthodox) principles until almost 300 years after the death of Christ. Whre was the Holy Spirit for those first 300 years?

If you are going to lecture us on Christianity, please try to have your facts straight.

Best wishes.

Mike H

Just because YOU don't agree with the Catholic church, does not mean they should espouse YOUR beliefs. Get over yourself.

How would it look if Notre Dame disallow the first president of African ancestry to not speak to the graduating class now, wouldn’t that be awful and elitist.

So, are you a racist? Should that matter? Who is being elitist?

Maybe you think they should invite Rev Wright? Do you agree with him? After all - he is black.

I also like the Freudian slip (I hope) about Obama talking about his plans their for their lives. That is unfortunately true. His plans include saddling them and their children, their granchildren, etc with a deficit greater than all previous deficits by a huge factor.

If LDS, I mean LMS stopped posting/spouting to each and every post (I know, I am beating a dead, absolutist horse)...well you get my point. To prove it, I will not post on the next topic.

It's also not in Larry's nature to vary his wordiness. He tried this time, but alas, had to post again because he didn't get enough endorphin rush the first time.

LG, I totally disagree, and I predict that, because most of the students and faculty are probably more open minded than a bunch of ancient minded bishops, they will, by open vote, give our president an honarary degree as a show of faith in our country and in appreciation of the fact that, no matter what the color of your skin is, or what you believe in, as a faith, America is still the land of opportunity!

Abortion President? WHere?

The Church has remained consistent on matters of faith and morals since it was founded by Jesus Christ in 33 A.D.

Where does it say in the bible Jesus created the catholic church? Where does it say priests can be pedophiles.

Amen, and Praise the Lord!

Celibacy was mentioned in the Bible. That is what the "eunuchs" practiced; they had no choice.

Do not mock the basic tenets of our Catholic faith. Yes, we believe in Transubstantiation and no, we are not vampires and cannibals. And we do believe in the Virgin birth because all Christians believe in the Son of God, not the Son of Joseph. As there are some species that can self-multiply, who is to say that one woman out of the billions in history could not bear a child without sex? Papal infallability is when he speaks on matters of faith and morals, not everyday events. Learn something before you mock it.

That said, Jesus never said anything about abortion. In His time, unwanted babies were cast upon the hillside to die, so what do the bishops believe is the better choice, birth and no care or no birth at all? ND is honoring a president who is trying to limit the need for abortions, yet out-of-step bishops are condemning him instead of trying to work with him. Bishop Wenski says he's against torture. Why then did he and others like Martino of Scranton not deny the sacraments to any bush supporters?

Mike - your first paragraph was right on, but the second one???

If this president is trying to limit the need for abortions, he's got a twisted way of doing it - by trying to remove all restrictions on it, right up to the moment of birth, even partial birth; by removing the need for parental involvement for a minor to have an abortion; by lowering the age when a child can get an abortifacient, etc. When you say "out-of-step" bishops, who are they out of step with - Obama and his radical anti-life agenda, or the Magisterium of the Church. Guess where their allegience better be - for God's sake and ours?

Oh horse hockey all you did was post your feeble opinion and no facts.

joel,

abortion is murder of the most innocent.

trco - but the woman aborting could buy an indulgence, so it's all good, right?

dacincykid

Oh horse hockey all you did was post your feeble opinion and no facts.

That is all you do! Obama has consistently said he favors abortion "rights" for the mother, not for the baby. He consistently agrees with spending my money against my will to support abortion not only here but around the world. Have you been under a rock the past few years? (Oh wait, you probably have.....)

Amen, As Jesus said, let he who is without sin among you cast the first stone! Catholics be sure you are not the anti-christ! I am against abortions but as you said, a person has the right to choose! The Catholic priest are molesting children and ruining their lives, choose the sin if you want to weigh it! You have killed babies before they can grow up! Thank God for grace, or you Catholics would be burning in hell now for your abominations! Take your skirts off, and me true men of GOD, if you know HIM!

Marc ......... You don't know anyone who is for abortion!!!!! Wake up - talk to Boxer, Clinton, Kennedy, Kerry, etc., etc., etc., or any 13 or 14 year old girl who had the misfortune to stumble into a U.S. government funded Family Planning Clinic and ask for help! Where do you live? Are there no newspapers in your city? Don't make such stupid statements unless you can back them up! "I don't know of anyone who is for abortion" -------------- how brainwashed can one person be?

PhoneyJim, You write like a typical right-wing religious basket case who is so hurt by someone trully deserving of his presidency that you resort to your right-wing gang tendancies with (typically) nothing positive to say.

In the mean time Phoney, please tell us specifically all what Boxer, Clinton, Kennedy, and Kerry said about being anti-abortion? Or do you automatically consider pro-choice anti-abortion- which you probably do?

Philly Jim,

If you're referring to Planned Parenthood, they will make sure that the 13 or 14 year old pregnant child is aware of her choices. All of them. If the young woman chooses to carry a child, they take responsibility for prenatal care and check-ups so that Mom/baby are healthy.

I hope you'll visit your local chapter to see what really goes on there. They do a fantastic job educating women (and men) about their bodies.

Well said. And Philly Jim, what cave do you live in? Seriously, the people who have to deal with this on a daily basis are more anti-abortion than anyone. Just because they respect a woman's right to choose doesn't make them pro-abortion. And, you can rant against every Democrat you can think of (Except Harry Reid - who is pro choice) but it doesnt' make your insane position true. Really, your attitude is exactly why nobody can find some common ground on this issue and get to the real work of dealing with the issues that cause abortion.

sandan - the last bastion of a liberal - namecalling.

And so-called "pro-choice" does mean pro-abortion. It can mean nothing less. Choice starts BEFORE conception.

United - Have you not seen the expose on PP and others lying and telling underage girls to lie to get abortions? They push abortion. That is NOT education.

Larry, unless you have had your legs up in stirrups for a health practioner to check you, how do you know what happens in a consultation and examination in one of these clinics? Have you been there under false pretenses? Lying is a sin......LOL

Like stated before, it is about time men keep their opinions to themselves on the issue or start practicing safe sex, abstainance, sex only when married and to the woman you are married to, have a vasectomy.......oops that and safe sex is not allowed by the church....... do not forget to stay married and if not remember to pay child support for all the offspring. Be prepared to practice abstenance or be a single parent, if the wife has some illness from which she could die should she gets pregnant again, because as you know contraception is frowned on by the Pope or these bishops who have never suffered hunger or lack for anything in their lives, well present lives anyway. LOL

I don't know whether "all" those bishops spoke out the extremely rare cases of priests molesting children. But my guess is that at least most of them did.

Of course, committing one sin does not excuse another one. The "health of the woman" is extremely rare. That is used as an excuse sometimes. Doctors and patients always have the right to consider the health of the patient in any case. Unfortunately, the vast majority of abortions are conducted for the "convenience of the woman". And the death of the child. My experience with good mothers is opposite of yours. I know many that would give their life for that of their child, even unborn.

So you don't think that a man's opinion and vote supporting abortion matters? If I said I supported self-mutilation of women, would you care? I mean, it would not apply to me. Of course you would care, and rightfully so. (And of course I don't support that at all!)

Ok Larry, I am back just to prove my word and point.

Dude, you are the only one blathering to this post (no offense, TAC). You took one break-hooray. Get over yourself, dude. I didn't even read all of your post...again my point. Tired, beaten, absolutist drivel...Like the Catholic Church, and Notre Dame football :-)

tac210, unforutanely, like Jimmy Carter, the catholic church DOES hold to the principle of the sin of thought as well as deed, that is THINKING about a 'bad' thing is JUST as bad as actually DOING it - talk about toltalitarian, but then the catholic Church invented the both the inquisition AND the first deptartment of Agitprop

Many pray to Mary then beat up on women, meddle in their business, try to take away their rights under the law. Hmmmmm

What's with these priests/bishops dumping on women so much, trying to control them and their bodies and minds....especially their bodies....... since the year dot, yet not trying to control men?

Have they got women issues? I have yet to meet a woman who has pen**s envy yet there seem to be many men with titular issues. LOL

This is the US of A. Women have rights, and that include the right to have a termination of a pregnancy whether anyone agree with them or not. If someone else do not want to have one then ok fine. That is what the right to chose is all about.

If the Pope and Priests etc want to believe that catholic women do not have terminations of pregnancies or use contraceptives or other means to decrease the likelihood of becoming pregnant since the year dot, then that just shows how out of touch they are with reality.

The decision a woman makes is between her and her God, and is not made lightly from the look and sound of things imo. As the good book states "judge not that ye be not judged, for wherewith ye judgeth, ye shall be judged also" or something to that effect. Control yourself before you try to control others imo.

"There is nothing new under the sun". That is so stated in the good book.

jimmy

a little research will show that obama has definitely made his position on abortion known.

He voted against a bill that would require the medical staff attending a partial birth abortion to give aid to a baby after it survived a partial birth abortion. His explanation was that we shouldn't go down that slippery slope to prevent abortion. Problem is, the baby was already born.

He did not vote for this, he voted "present" meaning no vote. He did so because there was no clause concerning the health of the mother. This bill, as I understand it, was not based on any actual case, but rather to prevent any such case in the future.

mike

wrong........do the research. He voted against it and gave an opinion. There were several speakers at the hearing who gave specific examples. The health of the mother was not covered because the bill only addressed those babies that survived a failed partial birth abortion. Because the medical staff - abortionists - weren't required by law to render aid the the newborn baby, the babies were left to die.......after they had been removed from the womb and breathing on their own.

Ok provide us with a link to where you got that information because it is not what I read on the issue when it came up in the election runup. BTW DO we have to revisit all the BS from the election here.

BS smells the same, regardless. If you don't think that what Obama did before the election and what he promised in the campaign matters now, then it says more about you than him. It says you have no idea.

Much better, LMS. Concise and refined. You even took a break or two. Now I can leave with a cliche...Beware of the man (or woman) with only one gun...they probably know how to use it.

They were hiding behind their gowns and acting self-righteous when any news that was contrary to their 'teachings' became public knowledge. I was raised as a Catholic but as soon as I was able to moved away from their church, mainly because of the contradictions. I've never understood the reason for spending money on huge ornate churches that cost millions while there are so many starving children present in our world. And why is a special building necessary in the first place? Didn't Jesus teach in the fields? Besides, if you are in a life-threatening situation, won't you pray at that moment, instead of waiting until you are able to get to church? So the setting is superfluous to the need for spiritual guidance and assistance.

You can go to ND and be pro choice as long as you are a good football player.

Arthur l. what planet do you live on? We won the election the goofy old people party is at 21%. I'm not a catholic anymore because of bozos like you. conservatives are uptight angry people that want to spread their misery and mysery. the difference between me and You? I'm happy and I don't mind sharing. Get a life.

Have another drink. What comment do you think you are linking to?

Gee, Cupper not only can't link to the right comment, they apparently are a liberal since they stoop to name-calling and quoting lies at the first opportunity.

As I recall, McCain (a terribly weak candidate) got 46% of the vote. Not 21%.

And I guess you would agree totally that President Bush was 200% correct since he won TWO elections? Right?

Thanks for playing. Please insert another token.

arthur l, Ask yourself why Fox doesn't have a forum like this to spew your view.

Thunder -

Fox had a forum before MSNBC linked to Newsvine. They still do.

Where have you been?

I doubt that the pope has molested any little boys but it is hard to ignore the hypocrites that defend this religion.

He most likely has, and he is supposed to be a man of god! I DO NOT think so!

kmartin, as you have no proof, do not condemn a man for another's actions. If someone wrote here that you probably molested children, are we to believe it?

Mike, I agree that KMartin may have made an unkindly remark but this pope and others before him and their catholc dynasty have condoned child molestation for centuries and continue to do so, maybe with the approval of people like you?

The Catholic Church and Notre Dame do not condone or preach molestation. They have sinners in their midst, as do we all.

Stay on subject without red herrings. Obama supports a position totally opposite of the church, and Notre Dame is not supposed to honor anyone that does that. Other issues, though important, are not related to this one.

Quit using this inapplicable argument.

They may not condone it, but they sure as hell try to cover it up as much as possible. A sin of omission is still a sin, is it not?

Yes, it is, and in catholic teaching is EQUAL to the equivalent sin of commision, which means every one of those horsesh-t bishops who has knowingly protected one of these pedophile rings is as guilty as the perpitrators.

Thank you. You know what the real deal is!

Ditto

Bass, thanks for a few honest remarks which many openly Christian people find it hard to do.

I've been on thie site well over an hour and I'm enjoying the debate since it's not very lopsided as you'll fine on Yahoo news,but I do have to inteject a thought that just occured to me.

In a survey done recently, 86% of americans profess to be religious yet we have the highest per-capita prison population in the "Whole World," including China?

So much for religion in America! Less than 20% of people from western european nations profess to be religious and their prisons populations are a fraction of ours. Is there something wrong here?

Something's wrong as regards our incarceration rate, but religion wouldn't be at the root of it. More like drug abuse, and wasting money putting addicts in jail instead of treatment.

Addiem, I totally agree with you! We are placing people in prison for minor offenses involving drugs and no real crimes. I hate to use the anology, but if I sell a weapon to a potentian killer, should I be arrested and jailed?

Granted, not a great example, but we are and have beee putting small-timers in the Brig for too many years while allowng real criminals (robbers, rapists, child molestors, and murderers) to exist, sometimes unharmed by the law. Wake up Guys!!!