So, define "unreasonable". Or do you mean to just say "ANY taxes imposed on business..."?

Great point Gregg!

haven't "we the people" been teabagged enough???? I beleive C-SPAN has live performance broadcasts just about everyday...

Cuts to the chase quite nicely :

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22425001/vp/30199155#30199155

Hey The, it is more about idiotic spending than tax cuts. Don't worry about the rich. They will always have more money than you.
And, good point Greg, except both of the items you mention are paid for by the taxpayer and their employer. Try welfare if you want an good example.

I can only speak for myself, but would happily not cash any social security checks if the government would return all the money i have payed in over the years with interest!

I can't believe most of these comments. People are missing the boat here. The Tea Parties aren't so much about taxes, but about the American people's frustration with our leadership and how they have created and mishandled this economic crisis.

I'll be interested to see the numbers for these "events."

"Common sense" said "its time for the OTHER 95% of the country to enjoy theirs so shut up and sip your tea. "

I guess you don't smoke nor use gas for a car nor use electricity. Do you have any idea what the tax plans are for these items? Already 61 cents per pack and if cap and trade gets through as proposed, see what you electric bill looks like next year. Dumba-s. The "95%" will be paying a higher % in taxes than the top 5%. Bend over.....

Hey Common, and how will Obama make the tax code fair? Only way is a flat tax and no EIC as far as I am concerned. Would eliminate 60,000 pages of BS.

Hey Greg,

I paid into that social security fund for the last thirty-five years through matching funds with my business and additional personal deductions. I have figured that my business and I have contributed at least $600,000 dollars to the fund. So, don't tell me I have no "right" to cash my social security check.

Greg.....how is cashing a social security check buying into socialism?? Do you not understand how much money people pay into social security over their entire working life.......people end up paying more into the system than they usually receive in payments in retirement. The closest link you can make to tie this to socialism is the fact that we do not have a choice but to pay into it as the government mandates it, but you can hardly accuse people of buying into socialism by cashing their much deserved checks at that point in their lives anymore than you can tie people to socialism for buying into 401K plans for their retirement.

Perhaps you are one of those people that don't pay taxes and get the earned income credit payout each year so you don't understand how it works for the rest of us working people....I myself hover in the 25-28% tax bracket and as a very small business owner, I am sensitive to the amount of taxes I have to pay. Most people have no idea what it really takes for a business to pay for its employees wages, pay the taxes on each employee (yes, we have to match their share of things like soc. sec.), and oh yeah, then turn a profit. That said, when everyone is complaining that it is just big business that benefits from the republican tax cuts, they really do not know what they are talking about as small business benefits from the same tax cuts and really need it.

I hate taxes. I love F-117's.

Common sense, what 98% are you referring to?

George-St. Petersburg, FL.

The middle class pays a higher effective tax rate than most rich people. I said effective tax rate - that's the percentage of your actual income that goes to the government. Warren Buffet has admitted that he only pays about 15% in taxes, which is less than what his secretary pays.

good news is that obama's cabinet won't have to worry since they don't pay their taxes... like most rich dems, and rich reps, and rich inds, rich agnostics...

I can't believe most of these comments. People are missing the boat here

That's because most of them are Left Wing political operatives posting here to discredit the good honest American people who are tired of being robbed and raped by our government! The truth is that this is not about party politics so quit trying to make it such. This is to send a message to both political party scumbags that the American people are fed up with their nonsense! Of course some of you left wingers and Republicans are trying to take advantage of it for your political views but you will be exposed in the end. Stop being Republican or Democrat and start being an American!

There is so much hate toward people who are just trying to have their voices heard. The "million man march" was never scrutinized about who would clean up afterwards or what party the organizers were members of.

These events are on April 15th, but are not limited to tax issues. Many would just be happy if the Gov't would obey The Constitution.

Like many Americans, the Gov't has gotten too fat. It is not healthy. Just as people should limit what they eat, the Gov'ts consumption should also be limited.

Calling for the Federal Government to go on a DIET is not the same as saying it should never eat again.

If you don't like the idea of limited Gov't, then what is the alternative? Unlimited Government?

Mike-382581

The only taxes your business pays on its employees is payroll tax and nobody (not even Repubs) is suggesting a reduction of that number. As for the corporate tax rate, it affects how much you take home, but not the viability of your business. As a small business owner myself, I can attest to that.

Urgent request from Lib's, ....Make all that "GREEN" Tea.....LOL

Waste of TIME I would say......I wonder how much TAX, you all paid on those million Tea bags?

%*

furious in AZ

China and Japan hold most of this countries national debt right now.

Not even close. Both the SSA and Fed hold more of America's debt than China and Japan put together.

What do you think will happen if they want it all paid back tomorrow?

Do government bonds have a call option? I wasn't aware of that.

No other country in the WORLD would let their government get away with what the American's do.

Actually, Japan's national debt is much bigger (by multiples) than that of the U.S. in terms of a percentage of GDP. They're running at close to 300% of GDP, currently.

Just hang 'em all. The "free hand out" boys are in control right now whether you like it or not. It's a sorry mess.

Not Flat tax, FAIR TAX! check out

Or NO taxes on ANYONE or ANY business.

I can not understand why you don't get it. Any tax on BIG BAD CORPORATIONS is a TAX on "US" yes you and me, because corporations don't pay taxes they just collect them for the goverment. Please take some time and try to understand how business works.

For all you Dems who immediately assume that these protests are about taxing the Obama defined "wealthy", you certainly can't do the basic math. ALL of us will be paying more taxes! The protest is against the fact that ther has been ZERO progress in the direction of "change" promised for fiscal responsibility. Zero line by line accountability that Obama spoke so passionately about! In fact the direction is accelerating the other way. If you can't see that then you need to stay away from the cool aid and think for yourselves... It will be your wallets that will be lighter! All our wallets!!!

The only taxes your business pays on its employees is payroll tax and nobody (not even Repubs) is suggesting a reduction of that number. As for the corporate tax rate, it affects how much you take home, but not the viability of your business. As a small business owner myself, I can attest to that.

I believe you are forgetting about unemployment taxes (state & federal), Business Licenses and Permits, Fire Protection Fees, Health Dept Fees, Property Taxes on Property & Furnishings, hidden Fees in the products you buy, Taxes on Telephone and Internet, Taxes on your personal wages ( if you are lucky enough to make a profit) and on and on ...... But this is just not about taxes as MSNBC would have you believe this is more about an out of control government that refuses to stop spending our children's future away, that refuses to enforce immigration laws and is refusing to listen to the people that elected them. So if you don't want to help then get out of the way and let true patriots have a say in their future!

A lot of you people just don't get it. These tea parties, despite what your media tells you, are not really about taxes. They are about SPENDING. And it's not about Obama, or Bush separately, it's about both of them and all of Washington. We a fed up with corporate welfare, which I'm pretty sure the left should be upset about as well. We are fed up with government not truly representing the people. They only represent whoever make the biggest campaign contribution.

I don't care what side you are on, but when your "representative" isn't working for you, but the highest bidder, we cannot have an honest debate on anything. And that is what is suppose to make America great. The ability to have honest debate on any issue and find a solution. One side shouldn't have power over the other. We should coe together to get things done; not just play lip service to it.

From the Declaration of Independance:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

It is shocking to find a tax protest or any other protest for that matter is orchestrated by one or the other partisan party in an effort to draw attention to their pet peeve of the day. It is also a point of interest how the various media outlets cover these protests and either point out or omit who the partisan backers are depending on their predisposition. Most of the media is deeply connected to one or the other party. One might note many of them have worked in Washington in their past lives for politicians or political advocacy groups, they don't want to report the debate they want to define the debate. I hope the protesters will someday discover that both party's are basically corrupt, the deck is stacked against change as the system is controlled by partisan hacks and for the most part the media outlets are in bed with these scoundrels and are invested in the status quo. As many of the readers here are followers of the partisan herd I am sure they would rather attach some spin to the gatherings the latest being its unpatriotic, hogwash, dissent is the right of every citizen as is free speech. It is my wish that we will really see change some day and send all the lifers in Washington home to do something useful.

Those of you attacking the tea parties, just wait and you'll understand what it's all about... except it'll be too late! When heading on a path that leads over a cliff, the intelligent thing to do is stop following the path and find another way. You BO/congress supporters just follow the path even though everyone who has done so have fallen over the cliff! It doesn't take more than common sense to understand that spending money by borrowing and putting an extreme burden on our kids, grandkids and great grandkids is selfish, stupid and anti-Constitutional.

It's interesting how this article goes to great lengths to try to 'expose' that the tea parties have republican leaders... yet say NOTHING about how the constant left-wing 'demonstrations' are lead and funded by the democrats. The tea parties have NOT been started by the RNC, in fact the republicans in leadership have CAUSED the tea parties through turning their backs on conservative principles.

This is people coming forward with the common concept that Washington = King George. They are coming from across all income levels and political parties. The most Talk shows who are now promoting the parties did not come fully on board until 2 weeks and indeed most dismissed them.

What Washington is doing is raising your debt level and taxes, indirectly. Business simply passes that on to everyone who buys a product or service in the form of higher prices. Rich people cut staff, and raise what they want to provide their special services to others. The deception is that your taxes are lowered directly, while every staple of life goes up more than the direct taxes you pay are cut.

Greg-281912, TheNest and the rest of you - get real - was it socialist when your grand-parents and in some cases great grand-parents; you know them as baby-boomers and others having paid one-quarter or more in taxes for forty, fifty and in some cases longer to expect a return on their investment apart from governmental bailout of Corporate America, paying for public assistance programs such as, medical, dental, education and other benefits to care for illegal immigrants and those having later been born in this country with immigrant parents arriving years later? Is it wrong for them to expect a return on their taxes having involuntarily paid for the invasion of Iraq, Korean war, Vietnam conflict, commencing with both WW notwithstanding paying for, if you went to public school, benefited from the higher educational programs allowing reduced college tuitions, they helped pay for your education such as it was.

By definition, socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating public or state ownership and administration of industry, which is a political ploy similar to that of political correctness that the majority of the now generation believe rightfully theirs and advocate accordingly.

Nevertheless, something was taken involuntarily from this segment of the populace many of whom were conditioned to believe contrary to agreements made between government and populace that can never be fully repaid.

Still, this segment of the populace deserves a return on their investment regardless of how ill-conceived and manipulated they were by past and present government administrations.

Therefore, if you have not benefited in the slightest way, which you have in more ways than you can ever account for than layoff the seniors many of whom bleed and died that you can arrogantly denounce that which is rightfully theirs, which most never live to receive.

Do you pay taxes? I do and I'm not a rich corporate busness. I am sick of Obama, Pelosi, Dodd, Schumer and Pelosi spending our money like it's falling from the sky.

I'm shocked that those who claim to be Obama supporters are "happy" with the amount of tax they pay.............give me a break.

According to President Obama (I do give him proper respect even though I don't agree with his policies), we are no longer a Christian Nation.

At least they are doing something to stimulate the economy. The tea industry must be thrilled and one would think that Lipton's bottom line looks good right now. I hope they are at least using organic tea! What a complete bunch of nonsense. And how typical of the fat cats to instigate a "tax revolt" so that the people who will benefit from the new tax plan (the 95% making less than a quarter million per year) will blindly be out in the streets with their tea bags protesting on the behalf of the wealthy. How dumb can some people be. "I am going to protest my tax cut so that my wealthy manipulator will not have to pay his fair share." What's wrong with this picture? Tea anyone? Just sayin'

Well, they might as well cut their taxes because those rich honchos are paying for the democrats, you know...those people who love raising taxes because they never pay their taxes until their caught! That sounds good!!!!

Hey Axe1000,

Did you hear that the present administration is thinking about putting the veterans on the 'man made destruction' (terrorist) list? Soon You can be more patriotic as your 'fair share will be increasing'.

Bush didn't cause the economy problems. Don't you know who?

Get out and support your local Tea-Party today!!

Nobody is blaming just Obama that is a smoke-screen a distraction. Don't fall for it....

I am going to protest along-side democrats, republicans and independents and anyone else who understands that America needs a new-way a more fair way, to collect revenues...the IRS is out of date and congress never saw a piece of Pork it did not desire.

great post Gregg!

Hey Mike,

Do you not understand how much money people pay into social security over their entire working life.......people end up paying more into the system than they usually receive in payments in retirement.

I think you're wrong about your claim above. The last time I researched this, I found that the average wage earner overruns their contributions in 4 years. The highest wage earners take 9 years to outrun their's. Given the increases in longevity and improvements in health care, it's almost certain that most people will exhaust their contributions.

Now, speaking of health care, Medicare would be the other area of the social safety net that is vitally important to senoirs. It's hard to imagine any private insurer being interested in providing health insurance for retired people without having sky high premiums that no one could afford. Hence the government provides this service.

So yes, the original comment about Social Security (and Medicare) being a form of 'socialized' retirement is accurate. I have no problem with this whatsoever.

Speaking for myself, I have been out of school and working for almost 35 years now. When I look at my SS statement that shows my total contributions and then double it to include my employer, there is simply no way that the accumulated figure would do anything other than provide a supplemental retirement income. And that's exactly what it was intended to do in 1935 when SS was enacted.

Greg

almost every thing you say is wrong.

SSN is not supposed to be a tax. It was supposed to be like an annuity (Al Gore's lock box). The idea is we put in and we get back retirement money. Everyone that actually contributes gets back lesss than they would if they put the same amount in a private annuity. Since the governement has always robbed from it to cover what other taxes are supposed to pay it is now going broke.

Darfur has nothing to do with taxes. We could raise taxes all we want and we still would not go. Most American have no interest in going. Conservartives see no national interest, liberals are tiered of war but some are interested. Personally I think the UN should go and we do our fair share. The ironic thing is if they had oil liberals would not want to go, they seem OK with mudred, torture and rape among those poor people on oil rich land but conservative would go because they care about injustices among people living where there is oil. I know you will say violence has been worse with us in Iraq as compared to Sadam. But Sadam kept the lid on violence by killing your entire village if you set off a bomb.

Don't call anyone a hypocrit when all you are willing to do about darfur is raise taxes. Go join the army and then decide if you want to fight other peoples wars when your life is on the line. If you can't cary a gun go there right now and volenteer to be on a medical crew.

The one thing is for sure if we go try to do something about Darfur we will be hated for "going alone" on a military venture. I do not even think the people we are saving will thank us a few year down the road.

In Bosnia we were defending Muslims against Christians and we got 911 as a thank you.

I do not have any problems with people protesting or criticizing anything. What I have problems with, in any situation, is people criticizing without offering any better ideas. And I don't mean something that can be said in a few words that do not display a lot of foresight. I mean a solid alternative plan that can actually show signs of success when scrutinized from every angle.

If an employee of mine disagrees with a decision I make, I expect them to be able to answer the question. "Okay, let's see your idea." And since mine is directed at the improvement of the total business, I expect them to be able to show me that theirs will yield a better outcome for the total business.

There are thousands of people in governments both federal, state, and local, who we the people have elected to make decisions for us. I believe most of them are there because they think they know what that is, since if they don't, why do they get elected, some repeatedly? I believe the people I vote for do, but I am sure that some of the people there that I do not get to vote on, since they represent others in this country, do not represent my views or opinions. But obviously, they represent someone's. As long as we live in a democratic republic, I will have to accept that, just as I often have to accept that the person I think best represents me and that I can vote on doesn't win, because the majority of people disagree with me.

This country is under a great deal of stress right now. People are frustrated and feel like things are out of control. I can understand that. Protests like this one are an understandable outcome when you cannot go after the people who actually caused this mess. They're out on their yachts with their expensive accountants, toasting the low taxes they have managed to pay, and many of them paid even those with our tax dollars.

Folks:

This nonsensical, righteous indignation is very late in arriving.

Where were you all in the past decades when we were letting partisan politics kowtow to monied interests through the political action committees?

Were you having a spot of tea with your little finger crooked just so, while our best and brightest crooks, (I mean politicians, sorry....no I mean I am really sorry!), aligned the laws and business interests to allow everyone who works for a living to be destined to the probabilities of failure, and apparently by legal measures.

Perhaps you were nibbling a scone while the Social Security System was being systematically raided?

Maybe you were enjoying a cucumber sandwich as the health industry in all of its glory became a gigantic fraud and one of the major expenses that many do not have and many more have and soon will not be able to afford?

As you wiped the crumbs from your mouth did you not notice that the financial bedrock our country was founded on was being turned to quicksand by the legerdemain of high finance by companies deemed by politicians to be "too big to fail" and deemed by me and people like me to be "too big for their britches"?

Shame on all of those in power and control for being self centered and greedy.

Shame on us for voting for the PAC "bag" men and women who do the bidding of the highest bidders, not the taxpayers.

Shame on us for believing them.

Shame on us for forgetting what true values are.

I believe it is the politicians of special interest that need to have the bag unfurled on them, but I further believed we enabled this to happen.

Good Luck, you will need it!

Liberals are so narrow minded. They must not understand that you pay taxes on everything you buy. Just because Obama has not put his tax increases into effect on the top two percent doesnt mean that you will not be paying more in taxes for gas, energy, day to day necessities. This is the taxes that will kill the middle and lower classes since the bulk of their dollars goes to that. Get a clue before you make fun of someone protesting. Just like the war protests, they will probably start off small but they will grow if the current gov't continues to rack up debt like the previous administration.

This is not about the present administration or the last, It is about we the people taking back our country. ALL these politicians tax and spend do not have any of our interest at stake. They think we work for them.

Please stop with the nonsense of division. I listened to a young girl who organized a tea party in Boston. She was a 22 year old college student and she got no help financially from anyone. I think you'll find that the news media are not reporting the true facts in this case. This is ordinary people who are fed up with government. Bush and Obama republicians or democrats its not about party it's about us, The people of this great country..

Vote democrat.

It is easier than working (and, consequently, paying taxes).

I live in a mostly Republican area and noticed today at our little demonstration that the majority of the participants were State, County, and City employees and their kids. That seems odd that the people complaining about taxes were the exact people who live off others tax money. I would estimate that 80% of these people got their job through politics.

All of you have the same situation in your area if you realize it or not. Township trustees and supervisers all get paid but what do they do? I like the City workers where you have 4 watching 1 work. They don't share equiptment they each have their own.

I don't care which party they belong to it is our money that their union is bargaining for. Who in the hell let them off to play politics?

Carlos,

You said, "It is my wish that we will really see change some day and send all the lifers in Washington home to do something useful." Well many of them never left home. Look at your own City, Township, and County spending and multiply that by the number of Cities in your State. Be it Washington or the smallest Township it all works the same way. Half of the people at our "Tea Party" are drawing at lest two pensions from previous State or County jobs plus their now City salary.

Sorry for the rant but I just mailed my money in for both taxes and quarterly estimates. I had to drive by our "tea party" of tax supported employees protesting.

funny how msn felt the need to run 2 headlines discrediting this as partisan. bias, what bias?

cmon-864012

What bias? Ask and you shall receive:

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/04/14/lobbying-clients-teaparties/

Don't forget to tax those 210M bonuses the Exec of Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac are getting over 18 months, or the 9.1M the Senate aide's pocketed!

Yeah, let's deny people the Right of Free Speech if it isn't for Obama and his henchmen.

All he's doing by denying permits indirectly is making people even angrier and his "monsterous tax" is what he's gotten passed since he took office. He can say he's taxing the rich but cigarettes and gasoline aren't only "rich" purchases nor will the Emissions Cap Tax be only on the rich. Wait till his sheep see what happens to their price of meat and milk at the grocery store with that one........$145/per cow to milk in a year will equal $1 more a gallon......$250 per steer will throw a lb of beef up even more than that. Then stick it to the farmers with the USDA wanting $500 a property, $4-15 each for a microchip for chicken, rabbit, cow and states thinking farmers should pay livestock licenses.

The idiots in DC banned horse slaughter so they could starve to death and people in other countries couldn't use the meat calling it inhumane. How long before they push for no cow slaughter as well? PETA now thinks they should get $2000 a horse to euphanize them when they weren't bringing $250 at slaughter? We need that law reversed. They not only killed the slaughter market but the 4th largest industry in this country. Add it all up folk - horses, trailers, trucks, show equipment, RV's, show clothes, registration fees, vet charges, feed sales,........if anything PETA is GM's worst enemy!!

cmon

funny how FOX NEWS dedicates it's entire day and talk show line up to this "bi paritsan event"..

bias, what bias?

DrowningGrover....You say that "95%" of Americans will get a tax break. Does that mean that their "taxes" will go down at the end of the day ??? Ain't going to happen.

Mr. Obama did a great job selling that 95% number...and indeed many Americans now have $5-10 more in their paychecks due to minor adjustments in Federal rates. Very minor. However taxes have already been levied on cigarettes....the feds are looking at alcohol and fatty foods for the next round....and the Cap & Trade taxes will whack gasoline and electricity prices...BIG time. On top of that, as the Feds reduce funds to the state and the states cut back their funding to towns and cities...those same towns, cities, and states are going to have to make up the differences somewhere...so their rates will rise...just look at all the new taxes that New York is now proposing, as an example. There is no debate on these issues.

And judging how many have commented on this site, not many care about increased taxes that any government entity elects to impose on all those supposedly evil "businesses"...which will be whacked for more money at all levels. And those "evil" business will have to add to their evil deeds by simply adding the costs of business taxes to the cost of their products, so the price we pay for goods and services will rise to cover those added costs.

So life will not grow any easier or less expensive for the "95%" of Americans who gain a few nickels from Mr. Obama's cheesy tax cut. Their savings, and far more, will simply be removed in new and various ways. Anyone thinking otherwise is simply kidding themselves...people are going to have to actually PAY for all of Mr. Obama's huge spending increases...there is no other way around it.

As I said...Mr. Obama did a great job selling that "95%" number to the gullible American voter. But all will have less money in their pockets when the day is done.

Not all pirates sail in the ocean and climb up ropes to take other people's money. Some simply get invited in and welcomed...then smilingly turn and walk away with your money in their pockets.

Roger, I am impressed that you know where everyone in your town works and how they got their jobs. You must have a lot of free time on your hands or your are a newly hired spy for homeland security.

Patriotism is putting your country ahead of yourself -- which is the precise opposite of what the tea party plutocrats are doing.

Taxation is patriotic, one can make the argument but to use patriotism to justify seizure of assets could be called the last best arguments of a scoundrel. Was disagreeing with policies of other administrations unpatriotic as well? I would argue that politicians use tax dollars to build their power, exactly the opposite of putting country ahead of ones self. A servant does the right thing for its own sake not to gain the support of a herd of followers who will do the bidding of the party. The patriotic argument is hypocrisy.

TheNest, etal;

Maybe you naysayers should look further into the fair tax or a flat tax before you start flapping yor fingers talking about no taxes or social security. You might also want to consider the amount of new taxes going into effect all over the country before you poo-poo the following:

http://www.fairtax.org/PDF/FairTaxPrebateExplained2007.pdf

Above explains the fair tax, although I think it would be better and cheaper to just give those who qualify for prebates an exempt card, as opposed to mailing them back the taxes they've spent. (Yes, yes, I know; fraud is like jello; there's always room for it.) Unfortunately, there are no cons in the above link.

http://www.stockholm-network.org/downloads/publications/d41d8cd9-Heath%20Flat%20Tax%20Paper.pdf

Above explains the Flat Tax, in long order, sorry, I couldn't find any really good short explanation and all should be able to weigh more of the pros and cons so with any issue, hense, the above.

Let me get this straight.....a bunch of angry people with alot of time on their hands purchased one million tea bags to dump on federal property are protesting wasteful spending by the federal government? Was this organized by Lipton Tea?

Fazool-349405 this is nothing more than parasitic misinterpretation based on the fact that the so-called stimulus packages are doing nothing more than increasing an already existing trillion dollar deficit. Any fool knows that you cannot spend what you do not have and expect an increase least of all, economic stability, it simply is not possible based on an ideology that caused the first TEA party resulting from taxation without representation. How do you stimulate you pet to breed when it is sterile? The same principle applies with the economy.

godless society there is enough blame to go around instead of condemning the conservatives for blaming the Democrats, who blame the Republicans and visa verse they are all the blame and the legitimate American citizenry are playing the price for their stupidity because they elected them without regard for what these greedy political nerds true intent or past records and that included the present administration from the head to the toe; they have manipulated the American populace into bankruptcy and ultimate demise because this administration has no regard the nation they were elected to represent resulting from their obvious submission to Islamic leadership. The people elected them and are obligated to take some responsibility for their actions as well.

Taxation without representation has re-emerged based not simply on the previous Eurocentric ideology but infused with a negative Islamic mentality worse than those whom are claimed to be terrorist. Putting veterans on a terror watch list should not surprise anyone since the majority of present-day veterans are direct or indirect foreign nationals themselves.

A review of historical facts would show that Spain and Portugal financed the overthrow and demise of the Mayan and Inca Indian nations of South America murdering more than 15 million while taking them to the brink of extinction prior to this the Islamic nation conquered the whole of Europe and held in captivity for more than 150 years. Think about it when reviewing the false impressions given by administrations that have clearly demonstrated a lack of concern for the American people. Where is the significance? Ask yourself from what direction is the migration of illegal immigrants originating without the administrations, past or presenting, doing anything to truly halt these illegal activities and why? Could it be because a vast majority of the American Armed Forces is of Hispanic origin?

Drowning, I think that the protests are against the tax increases that will come soon to pay for the bailouts as well as to say that the people don't think that all of that money was spent wisely, and "no, you can't have anymore." I personally received an extra $13/wk in my paycheck (Tax cut) but I will pay Much, much more in energy taxes once the they impose much higher taxes on my energy bills.(Tax increase, for example) I'll be waiting for a "Carbon Footprint" Tax to be deducted from my paycheck soon.

Can't the american people say "enough" without it becomming a partisan issue? BTW, I was outraged by the Bush adminstration last fall with the first bailout. (Among other things that I didn't agree with). I do think that the government takes enough from my paycheck, they need to do better with what they take from me before they can take more. I am far from being rich, My wife and I live paycheck to paycheck, we understand that we need to help others who might not be able to take care of themselves. But, I'd say that when the ammount reaches 50% of what I make (with Fed,State,Medicaid Medicare S.S, gas, property etc..., they're at our breaking point. These people most likely are in the same position as we are. (We're not "Repub. circle jerks")

With Mr. Obamas continuation of the Bush Administration's warrantless wiretaps policy, and the additional 40,000 troops deployed to Afganistan, it is a bit odd now to say that voting for one party over another will lead your children to die in a far away war. I think that argument went away when the troops re-deployed.

Both parties have failed the average American.

I am just amaze that everyone is just upset about their taxes. It is about being unemployed the lost of jobs, illegal aliens, about those who say it is your patriotic duty to pay your taxes but is seems like most of this current group have trouble paying theirs to the financial situation with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. The everday silent fiscally responsible, taxpaying and law abidding citizen is tired of hearing everything is their fault and the ones that are responsible for these messes keep pointing the finger at each other.

To recap:

JKenney (in #1.44) pointed out that this is either about taxes or spending. It had better be about spending. Otherwise, these teabaggers are on a tragicomic crusade against the consequences of their own voting record.

Because Grover (in #1.6) was very astute to point out that the 2008 tax year did not belong to Barack Obama.

Then you have Jeffro (in #1.46), who cites the Declaration of Independence. If the teabaggers are so upset, it is neither Obama nor Bush, Republicans nor Democrats, but both that they're mad at. The system itself produced their outrage. The fact is that taxes are going to increase, regardless of who is in power. And spending is going to continue to rise, whether it is for social programs or defense.

And if the tea parties are polite discontents who wish to radically reshape the government, the rest of us (Republicans too) need to ask if their alternatives are tolerable. Is a return to Coolidge acceptable? To Jefferson? The Articles of the Confederation?

The teabaggers' sincerity and idealism aren't in doubt. Their pragmatism, however, is lacking in my opinion. I recall an old Mother Goose and Grimm cartoon, in which Grimm is shown chasing cars. Finally, he catches one, and is puzzled, saying something like, "I never actually thought about what I'd DO with one if I caught it."

I find it amusing that people are so taken in by this astroturf camaign. Lots of people got paid to make it happen, but they are not the ones standing out in the rain. I can believe that a "young girl in Boston" organized a teabag party and didn't get any financial help. You are simply saying she's gullible.

Two birds with one stone here, so they're together:

(From Drowning Grover - all itals are his, the others are comments. Mine are in bold)

So, define "unreasonable". Or do you mean to just say "ANY taxes imposed on business..."?

i think he means ANY taxes, just like most Republicans.

These teabagger protests are hilarious, they're just whining for the sake of whining, protesting for the sake of protesting President Obama, etc.

They're not even protesting in the right tax year! They're still paying the Bush tax rates this year (it's 2008 taxes now!), any perceived Obama tax hikes won't be paid until next year, 2010!

That's assuming they're not part of the 95% that will likely get a tax break.

LOL @ the teabaggers...

****************

What is laughable is that everyone seems to only think Republicans do what they can to reduce taxes. JFK reduced taxes, and the country prospered. So, is John F. Kennedy now considered a Republican to (revisionist) historians? Last time I checked he was a Democrat.

And, come on, are you seriously telling me that you'd rather pay higher taxes for the mostly pork spending done in 86 days of Obama's administration? He - by himself and in record time - had added more to the deficit than all the other presidents combined.

Plus, if you think the tax woes are tough under this one with Bush, just wait until next year with Obama's bracket. A couple of bucks more every week is going to add up to much more paying it back next year. Don't think that this $500 stimulus we're getting isn't going to be paid back. And, don't think that we're really going to get a tax break - we're losing breaks that poor to middle class individuals and families are benefitting from (I'm in the poor class - though I live comfortably - and I benefitted from that break. Of course, I also never took withholding in my paycheck, which is also paid back at the end of the year.

Oh, one more thing - Obama's tax cuts and stimulus plan will reward those who sit on their lazy butts daily (BTW - I mean lazy, can actually work but doesn't care to - truly disabled is a different story) and wait for handouts from the government while tax those of us who save, work daily and earn our fair share. Does that seem fair to you? I hope not - because it shows you either ignorant or you're one who takes part in it.

I'm wondering if any of these protesters are destroying their Medicare cards or are refusing to cash their Social Security checks.

If they are, indeed, cashing those Social Security checks, then they are supporting socialism and the taxes that go along with socialism.

of course not. That would require them to walk the walk rather than just talk the talk, as they say...

*************

Hmm... might be true, but news flash guys - Social Security is also being dipped into by Congress a lot to pay for some of the pork barrel spending being done in recent years (I mean all the way even before Bush. People get less and less from it because of that, which is again paid by taxes of those who have worked hard for years. I will be at least 68 before I can withdraw, and not too too many years ago, it was 65 or younger. Think about it - we're taxed to put into a program they dip into to pay for things it's not for (pork barrel projects, CYA for budgets) then pay again at tax time - that's double taxation.

Medicare is for the most part carp now, and trust me, reading stories of nationalized health care, you DON'T want that. Do you really want to have your life placed in the hand of bureaucrats who decide if you really need that stent in your heart from a heart attack - and you die because they say it can wait (most of them, you can't wait long periods of time without health risks).

Point of the matter is DrowningGrover - hard working Americans are sick and tired of Congress spending our hard earned money to go to studies that a lot of times do not need that money or for illegal immigrants/those who do not care to work money they didn't earn. This hopefully will be a wakeup call for Congress - though doubtful as they don't have to worry about paying for health care (they get it for the rest of their life) or risk losing their pension - Why... oh yeah... those are all paid WITH OUR TAXES!

For better or worse, we have an economic system in America that is based on capitalistic and socialistic principles.

That's the way it works. And, Social Security and Medicare ARE socialist programs, no matter how you define them.

I assume that everyone at teabagging parties will go home and destroy their medicare cards and will ensure that they and there parents refuse Social Security.

cmon: but aren't you the same one that said msn would not even write anything about these tea parties?? Just checking.

Hey I agree! Amazing that these same complaining whackos said nothing when President Shrub( oops Bush) screwed the Economy up!!

A Seante report just solved Californias' financial problem. In a report released Wednesday, the U.S. Public Interest Research Group offered a state-by-state breakdown of the cost to taxpayers of tax revenue lost to "shell companies and sham headquarters" in places like Switzerland and the Cayman Islands. Californua lost 11 billion in tax revenue out ot the National total of 100 billion lost due to illegal tax shelters. The really sad part about all of this is that the taxpayer provided billions to corrupt corporatoons like bailout beneficiaries Morgan Stanley, Citigroup, and Bank of America who boast over 300 subsidiaries in the Cayman Islands. Once again our corporate/government has failed to protect us and enforce the law.

Something new please

Perhaps you didn't read my post before you responded to me directly. I was referring to even the folks that pay NO INCOME TAX NOW that will be paying more and more of their income to taxes such as cigarette taxes as well as when cap and trade gets through for their gas and electricity. Understand?

To SUE AH SIDE. I sent my stimulus check back the day I got it. I know you were just being a wise-a** but there are actually some of us who think it's immoral to take things or money that doesn't belong to us.

Unlike Tim Geithner and some of his buds, as far as we know, Dick Army and his buds pay their taxes.

mel, i'll keep this short

JFK reduced taxes, and the country prospered

yeah, but what was the marginal tax rate he started with and what did he change it to? We're in a completely different economic world than that JFK (or even Reagan) faced, the top rate isn't > 70% like it used to be, it's 35%!! Perhaps tax cuts might not be as effective as they used to be...

Finally,

Point of the matter is DrowningGrover - hard working Americans are sick and tired of Congress spending our hard earned money

i don't doubt that, i'm just curious as to why all this outrage sprang up on January 20th when a D took over the presidency. It just doens't seem genuine, AT ALL. If these people were for real, they would have been protesting since the mid 1980's...

I stand by my assertion that these tea parties are nothing more than rightwing circle-jerks...

Greg, its a weak point. The difference is that those collecting social security had to suffer through the social security tax that collected the money in the first place. What the protests are all about is new ways of taxing the same dollar. It's also about the socialism of taking that same tax dollar that was to fund social security and giving it to some one who did not contribute a dime to the fund. Look at the effective rate of each dollar that you earn, you will find that in some states sixty cents or more of every dollar go to taxes (counting both federal and state taxes), leaving you with forty or less cents to live on. You take more of the dollar, that means less to live on as a middle class American.

Does anyone like how big government has gotten in the last 10 years? Over spending is the current problem. If you like socialist/marxist ideas, then you should be happy. But, if you think our constitution is what separates us and the rest of the world and is being trampled then you should stand up and get rid of the clowns holding political office. In a year, we all be crying about double digit taxes...

George-St. Petersburg, FL.

First off, calling cap-and-trade a tax is like calling the seat-belt or airbag requirement on cars a tax, so I guess it's a tax. After all, it's a federal law that drives up the price of a car. Also, people are only speculating as to the full quantitative effects of cap-and-trade. How fossil-fuel-based energy suppliers will react to the policy remains to be seen. Where the price of energy ends up remains to be seen (and depends on demand a hell of a lot more than cap-and-trade). And whether our reduced dependence on foreign oil will provide any ancillary benefit to the economy that would offest any cost increases that may result from cap-and-trade remains to be seen. Please direct your crystal ball to helping you pick stocks and away from commenting on energy policy.

Godless, How many "Rich" Democrats, in congress specifically, have paid their fair share in taxes?

Mess they created? How about Youtubing "Fanny & Freddy" 5 hits down 8 min. video. Please share with us posters your video of democrats warning of the impending trouble with those "Toxic loans." I'll be waiting for your reply.

TJM07

If you do not give "to some one who did not contribute a dime to the fund" you will end up with a major homeless situation (worse even than we have now) and, potentially, civil unrest. In a civilized society, you can't just let a significant portion of the population starve. While I'd prefer not to have anyone that is able-bodied on the government teat, it doesn't really bother me as much as it does you. Also, I'd be interested to see the results of a study that compared the entitlement dollars given to able-bodied persons in America to the amount of money wasted (or lost) by the military in the last 40-50 years. I'm curious as to which number is bigger.

Hope for peace, could you please tell me what the deficit will be after just the first Obama year? Just curious.

as we speak... Department of Homeland Security has already labeled all of us supporting this as terrorists. Notices sent to all local police agencies.

JEFFRO42 - We took care of this when we knocked the GOP from the White House..... and several other SEATS, on down the line....LOL

Or have you forgotten - OBAMA WAS ELECTED, FAIR AND SQUARE, IN AN ELECTION???

THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN...........

You should go spend some time at the GOP "Tea Party" today and get your dailey DOSE......

I'll stick with MY Kool-Aide, LOVE that Grape....!

Something new please

Sound like you are the one looking into a crystal ball. Your entire response is filled with what ifs, whethers, woulds and "remains to be seen". Just move on from a subject that is hypothetical and admit that when a company is taxed or has "Federal laws" aka fees aka taxes imposed on it it will no doubt increase prices. You don't need a crystal ball to understand basic econommics.

Wow, why would this comment have been "collapsed by the community"???

George-St. Petersburg, FL. Comment collapsed by the community

Seems that all MSNBC can say about this event is that the GOP sponsored it. Great detailed article. This will be the first of many protests over the next 3 1/2 years. When the current Admin's justification for what they are doing is "We won the election" people will eventually speak up against the arrogance and let the people "in charge" know where we stand. It's just begun....

{"commentId":6496076,"threadId":"554607","contentId":"2686957","authorDomain":"geofla"}

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#1.11 - Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:59 AM EDT

It already had 44 positive votes. Which community collapsed it, MSNBC????

For those of you who think this is a partisan issue you are incorrect.

The government does not care whether you are Rep, Dem, White, Black, Green, Blue, etc. If they can get one more measly cent out of you in taxes they will. They don't give a damn about what your belief system is. The tea parties should bring those that differ on social issues together to unite against a common threat to all taxpayers, higher taxes.

In California we got hit with more taxes recently. We are most likely the highest taxed state. The radio channel (KFI) I listen to in LA is far from conservative. They usually support gay marriage and are pro-abortion. What they do fight is political injustice whether it be in the Democrat or Republican camp. Currently they have initiated recall efforts against 3 Republicans who jumped ship to pass a budget that increased our taxes phenomenally. Our legislature in their infinite wisdom put propostions on the May ballot to keep these taxes in effect for an additional 2 years. There is now a grass roots effort to stop the passage of these propositions. Both parties are throwing large amounts of cash at advertising to get passage.

Wake up people! Republicans/Democrats, Conservatives/Liberals, Gay/Straight, men/women all need to unite to say no to the continual raping of the American taxpayer.

Whoops. I guess after that rant I will be on some government watch list.

We had the chance to protest in mass against Bush for the last 8 years. No one did. Sure, we complained, groaned and moaned to each other, much like what is done here, but nothing was done. We waited for an election. Not very expedient, but we got a new face.

Now we are not happy with the new face, because it is much like the old one. We sat around and took it from Bush for as long as we could, then we went into the voting booth and cast our ballot for change. That is not what we got.

We went from a rainstorm to a hurricane. It has pushed us over the edge. Had Obama and this current Congress not chosen to spend us into oblivion within the first 60 days in office, perhaps we would have been more patient.

We feel the need to voice our opposition and it is our right. Bush drove us to the edge, Obama just pushed us over.

We have had enough. It is beyond me to think that a majority of the Bush haters are okay with what Obama and Congress are doing now. It's the same, different package, but definitely the same.

We support our military and veterans. We support the right to own guns. We oppose illegal immigration. We oppose higher taxes for foolish spending. According to Homeland Security we are now considered right wing extremists and are a national security threat. Well so be it. Label us what you will. It makes no difference. We will not back down. We have the right to protest and we will until we see the change that was promised.

Well said Just my thoughts. You are not alone. You would never know that fact if you watch the "mainstream" media or worse yet, MSNBC. They feel this is all made up by the GOP, Fox and Rush. The liberal media tries to paint a picture that no one but themselves are capable of original thought. You said it very well and us fiscally conservative Republicans are happy to have you and others on our side.

This is our country, not the Govmts or the medias. Period!!!!

George-St. Petersburg, FL.

"Sound like you are the one looking into a crystal ball. Your entire response is filled with what ifs, whethers, woulds and "remains to be seen" My point in making the "remains to be seen" comments is that I DON'T have a crystal ball. I DON'T know what will happen in the future. In regards to the future, I speak in terms of potentiality while you speak in terms of certainty. Hence, my crystal ball comment TO YOU.

While businesses passing on all costs to the consumer may seem like common sense to you, it's just not the case. Sometimes, businesses have to absorb increased costs, whether from taxes or otherwise, and take a hit against profits. All of America's energy companies will still be competing with each other if cap-and-trade gets implemented. If you believe in market-based solutions, you have to believe this market will achieve the best price for the consumer. Ahh, but you say that the government is artificially raising the price floor through cap and trade. While that may (stress on MAY) happen in the short term, with the cost of alternative energy supply dropping fast, in the long term, the "green" energy companies may (again, stress on MAY) be able to compete with the carbon-based suppliers with no cap-and-trade. The fact is, I'm not the biggest fan of cap-and-trade, and I'm not certain that it will work. What I am certain of is that Obama has an energy policy and the Republicans don't. Drill baby drill is not an energy policy, it's a campaign slogan.

Fanaticals stopped by red tape! love it! perhaps they should take that red tape and bind their facial orifices so that no more crap comes out. I hope this backfires on Fox bigtime! BIG Frakkin' Time! maybe this will be the straw that breaks the elephants back. If Fox fails to pull this off and make it as grand as they have PROMOTED, then the GOP will have to purchase another media broadcast corp. to do a better job of slinging the propaganda.

George-St. Petersburg, FL.

You've never responded to my earlier comment about how the poor and middle-class pay higher tax rates than the rich. I'm curious about your thoughts on the matter. Do you think that's how it should be?

There's a news report and video on the airwaves of Mr. Obama cursing wildly and then stretching out a Gucci-shoed foot to kick himself in his own ass for not thinking to slap a fat tax increase on the price of tea before the start of today's protests !!!

LMAO as we read about thousands of more people laid off because of those rich millionaires that provide jobs to thousands are fed up and leaving the millions out of work......And when you insult millionaires don't forget Pelosi, Feinstein,Boxer, Kennedy, Kerry,,, and the list of Demoncrat goes on and on.... they are not poor people, every time the taxes go up they give themselves a raise... and you idiots applaud it....

Just go ahead and continue to shoot yourself in the foot big mouth can't wait to see you begging at Obama's feet for a crumb of bread or a carrot from his garden in a short time because you are giving the Demoncrats all your money.....

Interesting to note how the Authors are bringing out where all the organizers and money is coming from..... But they didn't do that for the Obama campaign did they or the March on Washington did they..Who paid for all those buses and all the food for those thousands who came... They were sort of Mum about that weren't they... Could it have come those Foundations set up by the likes of Barbara Streisand or Robert Redford Foundations or the hundreds of other Socialist Foundations set up to funnel money to the Demoncrat Machine under the guise of grants and and voter registrations... Again the media is your source for your local Hypocrite news.......

And notice how Hannity became a "Pundit" when Al Freakin is not... Hypocrites again....

Well one thing for sure the Media is showing its insolence towards those who are not represented by their elected Officials...and shame on these people for telling the Lord and Savior what he can do with his Stimulus money! It's about time!

DrowningGrover

mel, i'll keep this short

JFK reduced taxes, and the country prospered

yeah, but what was the marginal tax rate he started with and what did he change it to? We're in a completely different economic world than that JFK (or even Reagan) faced, the top rate isn't > 70% like it used to be, it's 35%!! Perhaps tax cuts might not be as effective as they used to be...

Neither is tax and spend, which is what our Congress is doing and at a MUCH MORE ALARMING rate than during Bush's tenure. In the span of 68 days, he's spent more than Bush did all eight years. That's a fact Grover, plain and simple, and there's no end in sight. It doesn't take anyone to realize that even if the "times were different" those plans worked.

Finally,

Point of the matter is DrowningGrover - hard working Americans are sick and tired of Congress spending our hard earned money

i don't doubt that, i'm just curious as to why all this outrage sprang up on January 20th when a D took over the presidency. It just doens't seem genuine, AT ALL. If these people were for real, they would have been protesting since the mid 1980's...

I stand by my assertion that these tea parties are nothing more than rightwing circle-jerks...

Why? Have you been reading - Obama has consistently reneged on his promises, he's dropped the threshhold for new taxes from $250,000 down to lower levels. Make no mistake, you will be seeing new taxes to pay for the stimulus package that was pork laden, the trillion dollar budget, and increasing Medicaid, which is not the same as Medicare. Plus, these costs will increase as we allow illegals to come in and have anchor babies - which become citizens automatically and the parents can get welfare.

I will not say that Bush did not reneg on promises during his time - but one has to remember too that he did at least have checks with a stubborn (and yes, I mean this both ways) Congress. Obama's got a freer reign right now with a Democratic Congress, and add to it that he has allowed several people who DID NOT PAY TAXES become heads of departments (Geithner's not paying taxes and being Sec. of Treas. is irreprehensible), you can see why people are mad.

And, for all we know there were protests done during the Bush administration, but they weren't reported. But, we also know that the media is very good at manipulation - can you tell me or show me a simple article that listed campaign spending and where it came from for the recent presidential campaign? Answer - NO, because if you did, I think people would've been disgusted to know that Obama out SPENT McCain, reneged on his vow to use public funding only, and had some questionable donations (all BTW, are public record).

Trust me - these "right wing circle jerks" actually do have a point. And, the few TEA parties I've seen were truly non-partisan - they're SICK of it, and you should be too, again unless you're one who gets hand-me-outs from the government.

So your answer is to let companies take a direct hit to their bottom line. That should help a stock market that is down about 1800 points since election day. I guess you don't have much invested at this time. As far as Repubs ideas, you left out Nuclear, solar, wind, coal etc... (Stress the word "may" all you want but it's a fact, ask any economist not on Obama's payroll)

Something new please

George-St. Petersburg, FL.

You've never responded to my earlier comment about how the poor and middle-class pay higher tax rates than the rich. I'm curious about your thoughts on the matter. Do you think that's how it should be?

I did respond, see above but didn't say exactly what I thought. No, I think all people should pay the same % of their income. My additional comments were towards the lower and middle class being effected more by cig taxes, etc... Do you think that's how it should be? More and more regressive taxes??

Schroedingers Cat
Fanaticals stopped by red tape! love it! perhaps they should take that red tape and bind their facial orifices so that no more crap comes out. I hope this backfires on Fox bigtime! BIG Frakkin' Time! maybe this will be the straw that breaks the elephants back. If Fox fails to pull this off and make it as grand as they have PROMOTED, then the GOP will have to purchase another media broadcast corp. to do a better job of slinging the propaganda.

OK, let me ask you this - if this happened to say a liberal group (abortion, gay rights, gun control, etc.) would you wish the same thing on say CNN or MSNBC?

No? - OK then, please don't wish ill will on your beliefs.

This the real problem that will destroy freedom and Constitutional law. The Conservative, right-wing neo-cons developed a brainwashing idea that would grab the attention of the general public.....this is as low as I've seen them lie in the gutter to do. How classy....a tea party to protest our own Government.

As a Huffington article today said:

President Bush has presided over the largest overall increase in inflation-adjusted federal spending since Lyndon B. Johnson. Even after excluding spending on defense and homeland security, Bush is still the biggest-spending president in 30 years. His 2006 budget doesn't cut enough spending to change his place in history, either. His legacy is the catalyst that has caused the mess we are trying to wash away. President Obama and his advisors have no choice. The tax structure must change. Where were all the Conservatives who organized this fiasco been for the last 8 years?

just my thoughts,

I sorry, but I have to differ with you when you state that we had our chance to protest under Bush. Bush allowed protesters two miles from any of his events and also made sure no media was near to report on any protests. Some protests were made near Bush events and the protesters were arrested by Homeland Security for possible terrorism. This was another way that Bush tramped our constitutional rights!

I see that the ability to protest today under a constitutional president as a great commendation for our government and it is for this reason that I will not be joining this demonstration.

People who live off of others hard work will fight to the end to keep it. Look at the UAW. Those who support all these new taxes can alway mail more money to the government but will they? Now answer me one more thing, how does someone who doesn't pay taxes get a tax cut? When you see all the hidden taxes going up, fuel, sin taxes etc... Poor hardest hit. BO is spending more then all the previous Pres's togeather yet the looney left still complain about Bush.

More double talk from the man who thinks a rescue dog is a dog that Ed Kennedy doesn't want anymore...so out of touch with the mainstream. What more would one expect from an elitist. Well, as we get deluged with more smoke and mirrors...the fees, off-sets, and state and local taxes continue to rise all to support federal mandates. T.E. A. It is time to invoke the 10th Amendment!

I still fail to see the linkage between current events and the original Boston Tea Party. As a US History major, everything I've read about it said that the original Boston Tea Party was a revolt against England because the colonists were forced to pay excise taxes without having the right to elect officials to represent them in Parliament. Today, as I understand it, people are protesting because they don't agree with legislation passed that would increase government spending. Moreover, everything on the official Tea Party website indicates that it is sponsored in large part by Republican leaning organizations. It seems to me that is then to some degree a partisan protest. I would be willing to bet that if Obama did not sign the legislation to increase government spending that the same people protesting today would only be changing their message to criticize the current administration for doing nothing to handle the 'economic crisis'.

I'm not saying these people are wrong but I do think the approach is somewhat illogical. When you try to frame this as a non-partisan issue but the people involved are blaming Democrats and proping up Republicans as heroes you're only making bigger fools of yourself and driving people further away. Why is it so hard to find integrity in politics these days?

Right is right

LOL... Consitutional President...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/04/14/homeland-security-warns-rise-right-wing-extremism/

http://www.inteldaily.com/news/173/ARTICLE/10398/2009-04-15.html

2 issues that show that's not really the case....

Obama said he's working toward "a simpler tax code that rewards work and the pursuit of the American dream."

First time I have heard about a simplification of the tax code coming from this administration. And what is the "American Dream" in the 21st century?

In the meantime.... Can't collect taxes without a tax base? The economy has always been strong when there is a strong retail sector. When the retail sector falls apart the collection of taxes goes with it! The manufacturing industry is at a standstill and has taken the brunt of the liquidation of American Jobs.

Those purporting to back the tea parties need to have alternative answers that are going to make sense to the people. Where is the plan?

The underpinnings of an out and out tax revolt are in place. States are looking at raising taxes throughout as the answer to shortfalls in their budgets. Spending is swirling out of control and government workers have the upper hand at forcing tax issues so that they will keep their jobs. Many people will be forced to work "under the table" in order to keep more of what they have earned. They will branded the new criminals of society for not paying their fair share. Meanwhile... Illegals will continue to get the covering of a government that refuses to enforce the laws that they have broken. Hey.. a slap on the wrist, and a good meal at our expense.

What a mess! But let's give some people credit who feel that their voice isn't being heard. We have to remember that there were 58 million-plus people who did not vote for the President, many of whom felt that they were betrayed by their representative in the former regime. This is part of the balancing act!

The squeeky wheel gets the oil!

"According to President Obama (I do give him proper respect even though I don't agree with his policies), we are no longer a Christian Nation."

And the down side of that would be.........?

MN Nick,

"Why is it so hard to find integrity in politics these days? "

Great question, why don't we ask the 5 or 6 Obama nominees that haven't even paid their taxes or waited till right before their confirmations to do so?

George-St. Petersburg, FL. When the current Admin's justification for what they are doing is "We won the election" people will eventually speak up against the arrogance and let the people "in charge" know where we stand. It's just begun....

Again - not 1 person seems to understand WHY all this spending - like it's just for kicks or something. NO - the justification is not - we won the election - we do what we want - for God's sake!!! Were you asleep the past 5 years? Just come out of a coma and not realize the state of our economy and the desperate measures we are talking to try and fix it? You're going to protest for 3 1/2 years so you can elect more Republicans, the party that presided over the mess for the past 8 years?

No - not 1 post I see here mentions the reasons BEHIND the spending. it's just like Obama wants socialism and that's the end of the story.

$60 trillion in swaps - 687 billion in subprime mortgages currently corrupting world financial systems. Right now - while Americans are protesting the only available cure for the mess American companies made under a Republican watchful eye!

Sad - Does 1 person here have a better answer? 1.104 gives you more details.

But, no one seems to want to know facts or reality - we just want to protest in the name of the thinking that put us in the hole to begin with!

Republicans preside over America during the reckless behavior that created the meltdown - blame the guy that's responsible to fix it, brainwash millions of Americans into thinking it's the cure that is the illness and are campaigning for 2012 3 months after Obama is elected!

And these yoyos fall for it!

We wonder why the rest of the world is sick of America.

Right -

You state that there was protesting done against Bush, but that we didn't see it or hear about it, but you know about it. Okay, fine. Please know that I am not talking about anti-war protests. That is not what this is about.

This is about foolish, unlimited, who cares how it will get paid back spending. Plain and simple. We've had enough.

I get it - you don't like Bush. That we agree on, but I will not blindly follow any leader simply because I did not like what his opponent or predecessor did. Two wrongs do not make a right. As I said, there has been no change.

Ok - let's make this simple:

How did you think we would fix the economic crisis? Hmmmmm??? Tax cuts on the rich? Do nothing?

Maybe if I ask really slowly we can read and understand the question

What did you think should be done about $60 trillion in swaps and 689 billion in subprimes that are coroding our financial systems as we speak? We had a complete meltdown which was completed by 2008. AN obvious reason why blaming Obama is ignorant.

SO - ONCE MORE:

Anyone have a better idea than stimulus?

Tax cuts for the rich? Oil drilling? Do nothing?

Come on people - you're denying there's and illness and blaming the cure for the symptoms.

Maybe that's too complex and idea for us to get our head around. Maybe the guys who presided over the F++ up will be able to brainwash us all into rehiring them in 4 years!

They're doing great at it so far. All lies, but working.

Hope Forpeace
Nope, I've been around here for 42 1/2 years. Please don't start with the sub-prime mess. I know you would like to blame Bush and hold Bill and Barney blameless. Sorry, doesn't work that way. People like you and most Dems will blame Bush for the next 100 years for all the problems of the world, have fun with that. And luckily we should only have to wait till 2010 to replace the Dems in Congress. Today is and indication that that will happen.

And "hopeforpeace" Who said this is all Obama's fault????????

How, I wonder, do these protesters expect the President to clean up the disaster left behind by Bush and his band of economic geniuses?

George-St. Petersburg, FL.

Way to switch the subject. You commented that tax increases are always passed on to the consumer, and I made a rebuttal to that comment. Now you want to talk about the effect on the stock market. That's fine, but not what we were arguing before. I'd prefer to have one argument at a time.

In regards to your second comment: "I think all people should pay the same % of their income. " While I don't agree that statement, I'll say that, currently, the rich pay less than the middle class, and that's a problem. Doesn't it piss you off that Warren Buffet only pays 17% in taxes?

Look at the social demographic in the caption pic...

crusty old white people that are 90% right wing...

your eight years to late neocons- you should have brought out the pitch forks and hanging rope for your GOP boys- there the ones that soiled our nation with debt!

SNP

No, it doesn't piss me off. If someone goes out and makes $6 an hour or $600,000 an hour, that's great for them. I'm not really sure where you are getting the 17% number though. I would assume he's at 36% but who knows and who cares?

Why shouldn't there be a flat tax. The more you make, the more you pay. Seems fair to me. Why should it be different?

I guess I'll wait for a response to the market concern I raised. (I tend to multi task, sorry if that is too much... Just kiddin..)

Hope for peace - put those deficit numbers in year order. Note for others the Federal Budget 2003 ran from October 1, 2002 to Sept 30, 2003

2003 378 - Iraq war added

2004 412 - homeland recomendations added

2005 318

2006 Less than 318

2007 less than 318

2008 410 - gained control of congress in 2007 and wrote the budgets refer to budget year system above.

2009 407bln? - more like 1,250 Bln with Bailouts. Bailouts made necessary by Democratic (and too many republicans) dismissal that the morgage policy written by republicans and signed by Clinton would collapse our financial system!

Projections are assumptions based on if the average conditions remain the same. The problem is that when Bush took over the economy in 2001, the economy had been sliding for 9 months destroying all those projections worth. His first budget would have been 2002 (Oct 1 2002 - Sept 30, 2003) That was already blown by military response and build-up required by 911 on top of a recession (100 bln per year military cuts for 8 years).

Truth hurts doesn't it!

Hundreds of thousands of people letting their voices and opinions be heard. I am so proud!! For all of you who are only reading these boards these protests were American people. Republicans and Democrats, young and old standing together to let the Government know that we are sick of their spending and taxing. If you came to a protest these were not extremists they were everyday people who do not normally attend such events. We have to stop letting the political parties divide us! We need our voices heard! Stop the reckless spending!

George -St.Petersburg,FL.

Interesting that your attempts to discredit the constitution scholar Obama's constitutionality included an article from Fox News and an article by David J Theroux - Founder of the Cato Institute (deep deep deep in the pockets of Big Oil Industry). Couldn't you find a more reliable source like maybe the National Enquirer?

Can you offer evidence that Bush allowed protests or that he did anything more to preserve the constitution (per his oath) than the current administration?

It's a strange time to be an American. We all are worried about our jobs, cutting back on spending so we can make sure we can pay our bills and the government is spending like a sailor on leave. We and our children and there children will be paying for the "stimulus" bill that was a huge payback for the last election. Follow the money. The TEA PARTY is about the government spending what they don't have. What happens to you or I if we do that? It is not a Republican Democrat thing it is a matter of responsibility. We don't have it to spend and neither does the US government. PLEASE STOP DESTROYING THE HARD WORKING FAMILIES IN THIS COUNTRY!!! Cut the programs that reward the failures of others. We are cutting the defense budget but increasing the welfare budget. Makes no sense.

George-St. Petersburg, FL.

As to Buffet's tax rate:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/27/AR2007062700097.html

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2007/06/warren-buffet-p.html

Regarding your flat tax comment, I have no problem paying the same rate as Buffet. However, all of the flat tax proposals I've read about involve taxing everyone the same. A family of 3 living on $20-30k a year can barely eat, much less pay taxes. Now, if we had other reforms, such as raising the minimum wage, that would lift up the lower classes, then I could get behind a flat tax.

As to your market effect comment, we were discussing cap-and-trade. It wasn't multi-tasking, it was changing the subject. That being said...once cap-and-trade was enacted, the carbon-based energy companies would incur the additional cost of either paying a tax or buying carbon credits. Some would be more affected than others because of a relative difference in emissions. The more affected companies could not just pass the cost on to the consumer because the consumer would send their business to a competitor. So they have to either cut costs to maintain the same levels of profitability or take a hit to profits. The latter would have an adverse effect on their share price. This is all true. However, selling carbon credits would have a positive effect on the share price of the "green" energy companies. So, the effect on the overall market would be negligible. Now, if the carbon-based energy companies decided to cut off their nose to spite their face and pay the tax rather than buying the credits, the federal coffers would get some extra dollars, which would also be nice. It's a win-win as I see it.

DB Akron

Those numbers don't include the cost of the Iraq war. Add that in and the picture changes.

R is R,

Use google, those were first 2 to come up. Do you debate either point? I doubt it because they are true. I am not here to defend Bush. It seems to me that most Obama supporters thought he would be different on both items I listed. It's simply not the case. As far as protests go, he made sure they weren't a deterrant to the activities that were going on. The new Admin will have these same issues if turnout today is any indication. Let's see if a few months or a year of days like today what Obama is doing about protests... He underestimated the anger in this country. Perhaps it's time he admitted there are well over 100,000,000 people that don't agree with him in this country

SNP,

I notice you never mentioned if you had any money in the market. So not only do you want energy companies and the like to "take a hit" to their profits on the back end, you want to raise labor costs on the front end. There's another hit to the stock price.

Please spare me your liberal socialist agenda. It's not for this country. Perhaps you would be happier in Europe...

I'm going to get dinner and watch the tea party coverage, good talkin to ya...

oh yes greg, i will be cashing my ss check, money that was taken from my paycheck to support it (without my consent) for the past 50 years! fu

DB Akron

typical repub - leave out the costs of the Wars.........but hey the truth hurts eh?

Bush supporter equating "Truth"........who drank the kool aid?

George St Pete

going to watch the tea party or the FOX NEWS Circle jerk? Why don't they call it what it is - a FOX NEWS Multiple Remote.....put your goons out on public display and have the minions come out and feed them.......sort of like a trip to the zoo.

Exactly where do the jobs come from????? what is wrong with successfull corporations that make money? Isn't that their purpose????

All these republicans are just a bunch crybabies because they had a da as a president for eight years. Obama is cutting for the working class that are making $100,000 per year and raising taxes for the rich. Obama is a true American. GO OBAMA

George -

In reading the two articles you sited, the first one does not mention any president by name but merely states that the election of an "African-American" president has caused right-wing extremist to become more violent; the second one states:

The USTR under Obama seems to be taking the same position about the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement (ACTA), which New Zealand and a number of other countries are negotiating, as it did under former President George Bush, that the treaty documents are not open to the public.

Neither one approaches the subject of how well Bush or the current Administration upholds the Constitution.

I could debate the point if I knew what the point is.

Most Americans agree that OBAMA is a better president than bush was. GO OBAMA!!!!

Reagan was the worst president ever until gwbush. bush will be known as the worst president in history. GO OBAMA!!!! GO OBAMA!!!!!

Jake, point well made. I can't believe that people who fall out of the top 10% of income earners would still not be in 100% support of the "tea parties". They simply don't realize that when Obama and Congress get through with the passage of cap and trade (and yes, you middle class folks ARE going to be taxed more...Liberal Congress has never seen a tax it didn't like, remember that) that they "will" be paying way more for just about all the basic necessities of life (fuel, electricity, etc.). It IS a TAX by another name. Please people, try and understand this. I love the idea of people exercising there first amendment rights (uhhh....we still have rights....don't we?), whether you agree with them or not. I never agreed with the Iraq War protesters but I respected their right to protest. It's the American way. But unfortunately, many on the left just don't see it that way (kind of like a one way street with these people).

AZ4Bama

Incorrect. Most voters agreed that he was the best choice for prez. Can you prove that "most" Americans say that he is better? By the way, I never voted for Bush.

AZ for Obama, wooooo Trigger! I think you need to slow up, put the crack pipe down and get your head out of your arse. Your brain just ain't functioning any more....Bro!!!

Yeah: The Nest sounds like he or she is just waiting for the money tree to drop! when will idiots like you realize Business only passes their tax burden onto the final consumer. Better for Obama to come out and tell you he's going to soak it to the rich then to tell you the truth you will see the increases in everything you pay for from Power with his carbon offset program to taxing and imposing restrictive legislation onto business which passes it onto the consumer"You" unless you are a total couch loafer, Or business realizes it can;t be competitive in which it moves the jobs to China. You must be a real Ditsball !!

bdume,

There were over 2000 separate protests all over the country today!!! The count varied from 500 to 20,000 or more. Your stupid rant that Fox news was controlling this is stupid. This is a grassroots rally and they were attended by Americans from both parties. Democrats and Republicans alike. Many would not even allow politicians to speak. We are protesting Government Spending and Taxing. Get with the program and stop trying to divide the country. We should all want responsible leaders!

DownerGrover wrote, "i don't doubt that, i'm just curious as to why all this outrage sprang up on January 20th when a D took over the presidency. It just doens't seem genuine, AT ALL. If these people were for real, they would have been protesting since the mid 1980's...

I stand by my assertion that these tea parties are nothing more than rightwing circle-jerks... "

First off, the outrage didn't just start Jan. 20th, things were already at a simmer, now add trillions in new debt within weeks of taking office and yes people are going to get P.Oed. This isn't about any one thing but a collection of frustrations with the overall performance of government that lead us to this point. To believe more government, more spending, more controls, etc. is the answer is insanity. There is no way out of this hole now.

Oh and you do realize we have an all volunteer military now right? Not one of those fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan was drafted. Each one signed up of their own free will, virtually all who are there now did so while the war was in progress. My hat is off to them for their patriotism and service to our country. As for you Downer...., maybe some day you to will understand the disastrous track Obama has continued to lead us down. Your right he personally didn't make the mess we're in all by himself, but he's been part of it to some degree ever since he became a public servant (I hate that term, public leach is more appropriate). His current policies have doomed us. That's why we're mad as hell.

interesting how the non-republican responses were COLLAPSED BY THE 'COMMUNITY' despite have 50-100 votes. Paying taxes is patriotic! And why of all people is Newt Grinch leading the 'lost' repugs??? Give me a break! They should throw him, Hannity, and Limberger in the ocean w/ the tea! It would make one bitter tasting tea.

Why can't the repugs lead their party w/ anything positive??? Must they always try to bring down the other side? They and their leaders seem to stoopid and incapable of being able to rise above so they always just try to bring the other side down. It's a very sad day for the GOP.

Why is this comment collapsed by the community?

we'll see in 2010. i didn't like the media (fox) advertising these demonstrations before they took place. if somebody feels strongly about gov. taxing or spending then they could go out on their own initiative. it just goes to show how the media ultimately rules, pathetically i might add. that goes for both wings. btw, what did did these protests ultimately accomplish?

I have no issue with the wealthy that have honestly worked very hard and deserve their rewards. The greed mongers in high places including politics (Check out which tree hugger had the largest share in AIG) these people raked in the $$ while knowing how dangerous these business practices were for the US economy. Pay attention and get your facts before we vote again and vote these self-serving yo yo's out!!

FOX knows what the people want to hear......the truth!!! If no one was interested in the TEA parties....FOX wouldn't have such a following would they?

Something new please,

Something new, what would be your explanation of basic math to dumb little old me?

From your posts I see you say Warren Buffett paid either 15% or 17%, I'm not being overly picky here, but what was it? Make up your mind.

On to the math.....For discussions sake, let's say Mr. Buffett grossed $150,000,000.00 last year and he paid a paltry 15% Federal tax on it. That equates to $22,500,000.00 in Federal taxes. Let's say his secretary grossed $60,000.00 and paid 20% because she didn't have all of the deductions Warren does. She paid $12,000.00 in taxes. Who paid more? By your math his secretary did.

Drowningcommonsensegrover....

What? Did you check your reading ability at the door? Oh wait, you get your news from CNN (Clinton News Network) or PMSNBC.....both are apologists for the democratic party. Allow me the time to inform you.

Fiscal conservatives believe that government spending has been out of control for at least 20 years. Neither political party is immune from our criticism, they both deserve to be flogged in the public square and have rotten eggs and tomato's thrown at them. Then they should be run out of town never to return again.

There has never been a government program that has been run in an efficient way. If government would dry up and blow away tomorrow, most of us would celebrate, as government has become an entity unto itself. They have forgotten that We The People put them in office.

lauriesarno,

Please....if you can not formulate a thought, or spell, go back to grade school and demand a refund. At least we can spell stupid! And that's without using spell check. Of course, one must know how a word should be spelled in order to properly use spell check....But, please tell me, over the last 8+ years, where was there a positive comment, or a response to something President Bush did that was positive from your chosen political ideology? I have time to wait for you to figure that puzzler out, I'm only 54 years old. I think I have at least 20 years to wait for you to come up with one positive thing a democrat said.......Every day is a sad day for a democrat, because they can never find anything positive...I know, I was one and voted straight ticket for democrats from 1972 through 1984. Now I realize I was wrong.

The reason for the tea parties?

People are fed up with a government that does not listen to them.

We do not need government to perpetuate itself, we need less interference from them.

We do not need a cradle to grave nanny state.

We need our money, we earned it.

We do not need a government to tell us how to spend it, or what to spend it on.

Government has proved that they can not write regulations to regulate banks, savings and loan companies, automakers etc. Why should we trust them to run them too?

Absolute power corrupts....absolutly!

No matter which political party is in charge, they do not have our best interests in mind, they want to keep their jobs, and super pensions...and retirements that we pay for. All for them being in Washington for 1 term.

Enough is enough. Paying taxes is not patriotic, it is compulsary. Try not volunteering to file, or to fail to respond to correspondence from the IRS.

Hopefully enough people in this DAMN FINE NATION we have are fed up, and this is just a start....democrat or republican...vote them out!

How many Presidents faced 9/11? How much did this cost us? What did this event do to the economy? How many did NOT vote to go to war? It has taken more than one President and we are just feeling some of the backlash of past Presidents. THE NEW YORK TIMES 1999 "Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, has been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people and felt pressure from stock holders to maintain its phenomenal growth in profits"

The voters got their "CHANGE" with that said...most won't be left with any DOLLARS... the honest working middle class and the generations to come have been fleeced.

ChevsMark

If you follow the links I provided, you'll see that Buffet says he paid 17.7% and his secretary paid around 30%. While Buffet pays more in dollars terms, he pays a smaller percent. IMHO, he should be paying at least the same percentage as his $60k a year secretary. Buffet agrees with me. He thinks our current tax scheme is wrong and he (and others like him) should be paying more (in terms of %). The point is that Repubs throw out the 35% (or 39.5% if Obama gets his way) number as some sky-high rate. They forget to mention that nobody actually pays that rate. I repeat: rich people pay a smaller percentage of their income to the government then middle-class people and that is wrong.

Yeah, that 17% tax rate is almost certainly inflated anyway because virtually all of these super-wealthy are also receiving income via tax-free municipal bonds.

The good news is I hear Texas wants to secede. That would be fantastic! I say go for it! Don't let the door hit you on the azzzz.

Yes, this teabagging is great. We heard a couple of hundred people today showed up at the Utah Federal Courthouse with their teabags today. So, that's Utah. Probably the most conservative State in the Union. A few hundred people banged their garbage can lids together and dropped their teabags.

That means more than 2,000,000 people did not. That's about right. Same percentage of people that listen the Shawn Hannity for their political adivice. I wouldn't say its "in exile." I would say its irrelevant.

get real;

If you had a original thought, it would have died of loneliness.

Greg - Like so many you confuse socialism with social responsibility.

Typical class envy comment! Would you be spouting that socialist rhetoric if you made over $250,000 and were guaranteed at a higher taxes in 2009?

"Sock it to the rich!" they can afford it! In this country, 95% of the taxes are paid by only 5% of the population; we're already too deeply involved in income redistribution. Why do we have to futher punish the achievers?

Take a good long look at the comunist/socialist regimes and tell me how we will be better off by killing the incentive to suceed.

It looks to me like we all get rich together or we all become mired in mediocrity and apathy.

I was at one of the TEA parties last night and I have to tell you that what they said was how I feel. The government is concidering another income tax that will increase thier take and make it impossible for me to make ends meat. They are talking about taking close to half of my pay for thier BS ear-marks that President Obama said would stop.

Drowninggrover: yeah, cause there is no bias in having an entire network (Fox News), that also happens to serve as a propaganda arm for a particular political party, run a "grassroots" protest.

You mean like ABC CBS NBC CNN MSN MSNBC are propaganda arm for a particular politacal party?

shannon-688127

The $3,100 number has been refuted by the person who conducted the study that the Repubs have been citing. It's a false number. Please stop quoting it.

its about time the liberal news reported on it.

I don't think i've ever seen such a small gathering gather so much attention?!? Hell, Fox News is practically runnign these parties, well, actually, they ARE running these tea parties...

But there has hardly been a media blackout! What more could you want? The media coverage on these things is 10 times what it was for anti-war protests that drew 1000's more people...

Everytime someone says, "Your taxes haven't increased, idiot." The response is always the same, "Just wait."

Just wait for what? A president is never stronger than in his first year (or just after he watches a terrorist attack slip by.)

When President Obama proposes to raise taxes above the levels seen under Reagan, you people might have a legit complaint. Until then, GET A JOB YOU HIPPIES! heh heh.

ROFLOL I am laughing so hard right now I almost blew coffee out of my nose. I am watching on the news as we speak, The million teabags have been hauled off because no one thought to get a permit. There are a whopping 200 people out on Pannsylvania Ave. The "tea party" in front of the treasury, cancelled, again who forgot to get a permit? Fox News is already gearing up it's excuses as to why this is only a mere few hundred people instead of the "tens of thousands" of people it has been harping on all week. These 'tea partys" are the laughing stock of the country right now. I would bet they are garnering laughter in other parts of the world as well. Good job guys! I see this was thought through as much as the presentation of a budget with no numbers!

Alan Gioannetti

By that logic, when corporate taxes go down, prices would come down. But that's not what happens. I wonder why?

chief4

The $3,100 number is from a study conducted by an MIT economist. The problem is that the number doesn't appear anywhere in the study. The economist has said that his study should not be cited as support for that number.

http://www.businessinsider.com/republicans-flat-out-lying-about-cap-and-trade-2009-4

http://www.minnpost.com/minnclips/2009/04/10/8004/mit_economist_disputes_rep_bachmanns_cap-and-trade_figure

http://www.opencarbonworld.com/cache/news/mit-economist-disputes-rep.-bachmanns-cap-and-trade-figure

Hey Shellie,

Perhaps a protest somewhere, will highlight the fact that someone should have to have a permit to protest. Just another expense, imposed on the American people, to pay for a job, that was created, in order to tax someone, to pay the salary of the "permit-granter". Ya'll know any "employees" like this.....

its about time the liberal news reported on it

What are you talking about? It was reported on every MSNBC show yesterday, as well as Monday, and last week too!

he has already hit us with a 1.01 cigarette tax

Where I live (Washington state) the cigarette taxes are imposed much moreso by the state instead of federally.

I think this whole thing will be entertaining. The right wingers (and, of course, the people at Fox News who claim to not be supporting it but will dedicate 90% of every news program to coverage of it) claim this will be the "true Million Man March", but they would be more accurate to call it the Hundred Man Match; maybe Thousand Man March in cities where it goes over better.

This is all a bogus smokescreen for the wealthy who don't want to pay taxes. But look at this Gallup poll from today: http://www.gallup.com/poll/117472/Say-Low-Income-Americans-Paying-Fair-Share-Taxes.aspx. Scroll about halfway down and look at what people think about who's paying either their fair share, too much, or too little taxes. It says that in the "too little" category that 16% of lower income people pay too little in taxes (as opposed to 41% who say they pay their "fair share"), only 5% of middle income people pay too little (50% "fair share")...but go to the upper income people -- the wealthy -- and the "too little" figure jumps to 60%, with a mere 23% saying they pay their fair share. Most people seem to think the wealthy don't pay enough taxes! And don't give me that crap about the pollsters cherry picking the voters in their polls: if they did that they wouldn't be in business very long...and Gallup is as reputable as any of them!

If they draw a big crowd anywhere it'll probably be because the wealthy pay people to attend. Most people will see a decrease in income taxes on their paychecks (my wife already has); the claim that everyone will pay higher taxes is false. Tax the wealthy. Most of them have amassed their fortunes on the backs of the lower and middle class -- their employees -- but have so many loopholes and write-offs that their tax burden is less than many middle class people. Some wealthy people like to trot out figures like I saw yesterday on Fox News, that the top 26% income people pay 72% of taxes (I'm going from memory, so I might be off by a couple percentage points). What they failed to mention is that the top 10% income people hold 90% of this country's wealth!

But sure, go ahead and attend...the AIG executives will thank you for it...

Alan Gionetti - If corporations pay no taxes, then if we eliminated all corporate taxes, there would be no change in revenue. So you would be OK with the elimination of Corporate Taxes since there are none paid. Wow, we could get rid of alot of accountants at my company.

What a simple solution to streamline business operations - remove taxes.

Thanks Alan, I doubt any conservative would have ever figured out that you could reduce taxes, increase productivity, and be tax revenue neutral all at the same time.

Really on the $3100. Hmm, Fox is reporting it as accurate on several of there shows.

which pretty much ensures that it's not true...

A major point that just blew over the heads of those not acquainted with the Constitituion... the right to freely assemble IS Constitutional but the charging for such is unConstitutional. BTW, killing babies is not Constitutional... allowing illegals to receive welfare is NOT Constitutional, in fact the welfare system is not Constitutional. Almost everything the federal government does is unConstitutional... except funding the military.

They did have a permit for the Treasury building. SS put a stop to it. Said they couldn't have stages anywhere around the Treasury. It is pouring rain here in the north east. They are having these parties all over the country so you may not see large numbers at any one site. Fox news is covering the parties not putting them on. After all it is news isn't it?There seems to be a large number of very immature people in the Democrat party. What ever happened to tolerance. You either don't pay taxes, or you won't mind spending the rest of your lives paying off this debt. I think most of us would rather have more money in our pockets then giving it to the government for them to spend on their pet projects.

Alan Gioannetti

I think the point is that you have to fund the government somehow (unless you advocate anarchy). Whether it's done by taxing businesses, individuals, behaviors, land ownership, etc., you have to do it. The question is who do you tax and how much. Currently, because of the structure of our tax code, wealthy individuals have ways of avoiding (as opposed to evading) taxation. They make full use of these mechanisms. Since you can't tax the poor (no money), and because the middle class is already overburdened, you have to go after the rich. This can be done two ways. You can close loopholes or raise their rates. The "cut spending" argument is ancillary to this as our current debt and deficit would require a tax increase regardless. In other words, the money has already been spent and paying it back will require a tax increase. The only question is who will bear the burden.

Prices only go down if there is no demand, or healthy competition. Government doesn't like reducing taxes, because people already pay that amount, why decrease it, just spend it. One dirty secret politicians understand is taxes can be raised a little bit at a time or on unpoplular groups. People will complain for a while, and then get used to giving up that little bit more.

Alan - by YOUR "LOGIC" since my boss pays me, I don't actually pay any taxes. Only my Boss does. Oh, wait, the products we sell pay him. So my Boss and me don't pay the taxes, only our customers. Oh, wait, but who paid my customers?

Really, we are all connected - But yet I write a check to the Gov't just like my employer does.

Alan Gioannetti

Wrong! The Boston Tea Party occurred because of taxation without representation. Remember that from high school? Now we have officials who we elected assessing taxes. Big difference. Also, the taxes that were the subject of the Boston Tea Party went to England. We payed and they benefited. Now, the money stays here (mostly).

As to your comment "we all will in some form or fashion"...I agree. The question is how the burden should be divided. We're engaging in the same debate as every other country, and indeed, prior civilizations. There's always a cost to government, and most people don't want to pay anything for it, whether the allocation makese sense or not.

$3100??

you guys miss the point.

It does not matter if the number is 3100, 2000, 1000 or whatever.

The point it that this hit the people making less than $250,000 the hardest. It is a sneecky way impose a regessive tax policy. Yes I know it is intended to save the environemt. But it won't. It does nothing to stop the behavior it just makes me pay more for it.

I was very hopeful when Obama came in. Yes I have no problem raising tax on the wealthy. But he is raise tax on the middle class more than he will on the wealthy. His plan is to go back to the "Clinton era tax". This raise the tax on the wealthy from 36% to 39%. 3% but he is trying to raise the tax on the middle class a lot more than that.

FOr example he want to tax medical benefits. Well my medical benefits are 10% of my salary. Lets say I am in a 20% bracket. This raises my taxes 2%. Cap in trade say, say it added $2000 to my big (this is to avoid the whole 3100 argument). This adds 3% to my taxes. These two items alone raise my taxes 5%. It would only add 1.5% to the taxes of the people making $250000 or above. Obama is a brilliant person. So we have to assume he is smart enough to figure out that these two taxes are regessive as can be. So the only logical assumptions are either 1) he is being very sneeky about interoducing a very regerssive tax code or 2) he has not put the proper amount of though into it. Either way it is either as sneeky or as thoughtless as anything Bush was ever acused of.

Alan -- you are correct about the gasoline taxes. Now explain to everyone here how those taxes will increase from the state and federal government when demand starts to go down because of "green" vehicles. Demand goes down and revenues go down. Government will not cut services, so taxes go up.

Alan,

Perhaps you could clarify something for me. I apologize in advance for only having read a few of your comments and so you might have already covered this.

When taxes on corporations are raised your contention is that the tax increase is simply passed on to the consumer. Thus the consumer pays more for a product and the corporation is largely unscathed.

OK, I understand your logic. Here's my question. What happens in deflationary times or in periods where inflation is minimal? In times like we have had over the last 25 years where a company could not arbitrarily raise its prices, the tax bite can only go against profit; notwithstanding a few privileged industries such as healthcare or energy.

I am the owner of an "S" corporation and my company's profits flow to me personally. I know that if there is a tax increase, it also flows to me personally. Through the years, I have rarely had the opportunity to raise prices according to my tax liability. Now, I realize in a “C” corporation, taxes flow to the corporation, but I’m not so sure that a “C” corp has any greater latitude in raising their prices just to cover a tax increase.

Your thoughts?

Alan Gioannetti

I missed your gasoline tax comment earlier. You should dig into that excellent example a little more. Studies have been done about the fluctuation of fuel prices. What many have determined is that the price at the pump actually goes up faster than the price of crude. When crude comes back down, the price at the pump does down slower. That has nothing to do with taxes. It's called gouging. Hence, Exxon's record profits over the last few years. They broke records even when demand was going down. How do you account for that?

I understand where my taxes go at each level, and as long as I receive the services I pay for at a quality that makes sense to me, I am okay with that.

I am not happy with the lack of government planning to reduce this country's dependence on oil because I don't want to pay taxes to make a mess of the air, the water, the soil, etc. And, yes, I can see the messes.

I am not happy with the quality of the educational system in this country. And yes, I can see the results of that on a regular basis also.

I do not want to pay taxes for financial waste, due to lack of enforcement of oversight regulations, whether that be in corporations or in governments, federal, state, and local, themselves. And I see it.

I do not want to pay taxes to cover the share of services others receive because they have enough money to afford to pay people to figure out how not to pay their allotted amount. And people brag about that.

When all tax loopholes are eliminated and everyone is paying as they are supposed to, and when everyone is playing by the same rules, I think we will be amazed at how much more money we will all have to spend on the important items we must all share the cost of.

I'm all in favor of the cigarette tax - perhaps more people will quit smoking because of it!

You can't force anyone to discard an addiction because of higher costs. Yes, smoking is bad. This latest tax will hit the middle class and lower class (income levels) the hardest which is actually increasing the taxes on the classes that were told they wouldn't have any increases.

Alan,

You really need to look up what all Exxon makes money on. Gasoline is only a small percentage of where their income is generated. The government makes more money off of gasoline per gallon than does Exxon. We pay almost 30% per gallon in taxes in one form or another, including federal, state and local. How about we stop blaming the oil companies for providing a necessary service and start blaming the government for them taxing us into oblivion? Exxon earns their money from the risk they take. The government simply takes from us without earning a penny.

Islay -- It is sort of a vicious cycle, because if you don't pass through fixed costs like taxes into the final price of your product you have to recover those costs elsewhere. Cut the workforce -- loss of jobs. Seek out lower cost suppliers probably overseas -- loss of revenues for other businesses and loss of jobs. You see.

You could ask the stockholders to take less profits because of benevolence, but I don't think that will fly.

You could quit smoking. But, THEY would find something else to tax as the inmate will never take control of the asylum.

It's really strange that companies which have a fine product, such as 100 mph cars, meaningful stem cell projects that save lives, reduce suffering, etc, have non-productive stocks but those companies that waste time and money always pay off well. Typical.

Alan Gioannetti

Futures may be factored into the price at the pump, but that's not the crux of the basis. Particularly with respect to the franchised stations, their costs are controlled by the parent to smooth out fluctuations in the futures market. In short, they raise the price at the pump in anticipation of what the next load will cost. Regardless, the same argument I made above is true for the futures market. There is a disconnect between the cost of crude and the cost of fuel during broad swings in the market. Some portion of this can be attributed to things such as refining capacity and shipping costs, but a lot of the spread goes into the coffers of the oil companies and the gas stations.

Seen Enough

As usual, you neglect to mention certain pertinent facts. You talk about the share of taxes certain portions of the population pay but say nothing of their share of income. Our tax system is designed to have the higher earners pay a larger share of their income in taxes. Currently, that isn't the case. Rich people have access to tax shelters that allow them to either hide income or generate paper losses that they can offset against income. The amount of income they actually pay taxes on is much smaller than their true income. I know enough tax attorneys (who make a living hiding income for rich people) to back this up.

Another right wing fruit cake heard from; same old crap and you said nothing when Bush and Cheney were screwing up the country!

Shellie-552631 ROFLOL I am laughing so hard right now I almost blew coffee out of my nose. I am watching on the news as we speak, The million teabags have been hauled off because no one thought to get a permit. There are a whopping 200 people out on Pannsylvania Ave. The "tea party" in front of the treasury, cancelled, again who forgot to get a permit? Fox News is already gearing up it's excuses as to why this is only a mere few hundred people instead of the "tens of thousands" of people it has been harping on all week. These 'tea partys" are the laughing stock of the country right now. I would bet they are garnering laughter in other parts of the world as well. Good job guys! I see this was thought through as much as the presentation of a budget with no numbers!

What will be interesting is if we see Prop 8 opponents (gay marriage proponents) or other liberal leaning ideals say if asked to leave because they don't have a permit. And, has anyone considered the possibility that they might've applied but someone decided to ignore it so these statements weren't made? It is a possibility - though won't be touted unless it's a more controversial topic such as if say the above happened - a gay protest was dispersed because of no permit. We'd get "Big mean city government is blocking our right to free speech," courts would agree and fine the city. (this is an example only - I have seen this before, but it's not the norm).

And - in case anyone forgot, the tea bags were actually brought to a conference room. Do doubt the media will still get photos and make it news. Even papers considered liberal will cover it - it does (or should) make everyone really think about what out Congress is doing.

Example - does it even dawn on some of the radical liberals here that Obama and the current Congress have spent MORE than ALL the presidents combined in a mere 86 days? That's 86 days out of a 1,460 day term in office. Can you even imagine how BAD our economy will be at the end of that if they keep trying to spend their way out of the recession?

Laugh what you want, but seriously, rate this is going, we won't be laughing by the end of Obama's term. This is NOT the change he promised - it could get to the level of Bush but possibly worse.

I think what is even stranger is that they continue to call it anti tax demonstration. This an anti-tired of the government lame excuse demonstration. From the rampant spending to the illegal alien situation to Jobs. We are tired and fed up that it is all our fault for everthing that goes wrong in the world. This would be worded different if this was a greenpeace movement or an Anti war demonstration. The silent American is tired of taking on the chin and see and hearing both sides point fingers at each other speeches.

I do not have a problem with paying my taxes. Freedom isn't free. But to be fair, not everyone in our country "pays" taxes. I understand that freedom isn't free, but I also do not feel that my hard earned tax dollars should of been spent to bail out a bunch of banks who raised my interest payments and doubled my monthly payments. I do not object to paying taxes, I object to how my tax dollars are being spent. I object to the continued ideology that being in debt is okay. I object to the fact that those who make under a certain amount pay no federal income tax, and those who make over a certain amount tend to find ways to itemize and deduct to where they do not have to pay as much as others. I am in favor of a fair tax, the same percentage for every working citizen and I am tired of seeing tax dollars fund things that are not necessary.

Liberal/Conservative --- both have gotten us here. I am tired of one or the other always acting so rightoues and arrogant, your both wrong 9 times out of 10 so get off your high horses and fall back down to reality for a change.

Why do those with less always feel entitled to take the money of those with more? Why is it that just because you do not have as much you feel that those who do owe you? I am tired of the entitlement in this county. A flat or fair tax would ensure that everyone paid the same percentage of their income. My husband and I are not weathly but I do not feel the need for someone with more to come and bail me out.

We've become a nation of those who feel entitled to more because others have it...this is just so sad. :(

Sue Ah Side,

Couldn't you have just left a note?;-{!

You seem to be swinging a bat without much behind it. Why do you think a fair tax or a flat tax is such a bad idea? I can name one aside right now, to be considered pro or con, lobbyists would be unemployed.

Kristin674

It's not about an entitlement or a bailout at the expense of the rich. We need roads, bridges, schools, etc. and the middle and lower classes don't have the money that the government needs to accomplish those things. What you're not seeing (or ignoring) is the entitlement in this country isn't just on the part of the poor saying "help me." The rich have a great sense of entitlement too. And it's not just the banks getting bailed out. Whenever a company feels they're not getting enough of a break by staying domiciled in a given state or city, they shop around. And whoever gives them the lowest water and sewer rates, TIF financing, or what have you, that's where they go. It's called corporate welfare. In the past 30 years, the rich of this country have gotten richer and the poor have gotten poorer. If you don't see that in your personal life, think about what a car or the average home in your neighborhood cost in 1980. Now think about what the average household income in 1980. What was the ratio of cost to income? Now do the same calculation for right 2009. Sure, salaries for everyone went up, but the cost of housing, education, healthcare, cars, etc. went up faster. Our GDP has multiplied, but the middle and lower class folks were left behind. Most people aren't looking for a handout or an entitlement, they just want the class of persons that have benefitted from America's amazing growth to start paying their share.

For all the folks who are preaching the patriotism of taxation lets try a new approach. Abolish witholding and let the taxpayers settle up on April 15th. Then see how people feel about their patriotic chore of supporting the politicans and their friends and families. I am betting then people would give this issue a lot more thought. I am glad to be ablre to pay taxes and am grateful that i earn enough to complain but I also am outraged at the waste in Washington and here in Illinois.

Carlos Toadvine

I agree with you that actually cutting the check would bring it home in a way that withholding doesn't. However, in your post you're equating two different things, taxation and waste. I don't think you'll find a single person that supports more waste. However, paying your dues to the government isn't a sin. When people rally against government waste, I'm on their side, but the Tea Party protests are about anger at spending. I think that you'll agree that not all spending is waste. But the kind of nuance required to have a rational discussion about effective versus ineffective spending is beyond most people. You can't (rationally) argue that building roads is wasteful spending, even though some roads are built inefficiently. As some have pointed out, the protesters today would have been better off if they donated their time to a soup kitchen or charity than wasting a bunch of perfectly good tea.

Businesses cannot fold because of taxes as taxes are only paid out of profits. That is, you only pay them when you're making money.

Something new please,

Ever hear of matching FICA payments, taxes on gas to deliver goods, taxes on utilities to heat our plants and warehouses, business taxes just to open our doors to local governments, real estate taxes on the properties we are working from or to our landlords for rent, in addition to, as you say, profits, instead of hiring a new employee or reinvesting it in new equipment or research & development.

Go ahead, Someting New, why don'y your try "something new" and start your own business.

Bernie-294418

First off, I do own a business and have owned several in my life. You raise an interesting but weak point. With respect to FICA, nobody, not even Repubs are suggesting a reduction in payroll taxes. The other taxes you mention are levied by local governments and have no bearing on this discussion. If you, as a business owner, think your property taxes are too high, you can relocate to the next town over. I know of significant commercial and industrial concerns that have done this. Perhaps most notably, Boeing relocated from Seattle to Chicago not long ago for this reason (among others).

The broader point is that all of those taxes are levied on all companies. If you want your company to survive and succeed, you will not be stopped by taxes. If you're a plumber who's going out of business, and the plumber next door is doing fine, the problem isn't taxes. GM & Chrysler aren't going down because of taxes. It's simply an argument with no support. Now, you may resent having to pay a large chunk of your profits to the government, and that's fine. But if a business has to lay off workers or goes under, it's not because of taxes.

The tea parties are not solely about taxation. Obviously, many who will attend believe that they are able to spend their own money in a way that best benefits themselves.

Those that oppose the tea parties know that they themselves are so mixed up that they think the Gov't will spend it better for them.

It's a difference of opinion between the self reliant and the dependents in society.

providers vs. burdens

Conservatives pay more in taxes (percent of income and actual dollars), and donate more to charity (percent of income and actual dollars) than liberals.

So it's fairly predictable who will oppose the tea parties and who will support them.

Bernie-294418...other than FICA taxes, all of those taxes are LOCAL taxes, not federal taxes. Complain to your state gov't, don't blame it on the federal gov't.

Something new please...

They have to pay their quarterly tax payments based on last years profits, if you are having a bad year this year you may not be able to pay those taxes. Also, you still have to pay unemployment insurance (really a tax), match your employees FICA (I am sure you know what that is...matching social security and medicare), and you have to pay accountants and banks, and payroll companies to withhold the payments, store the payments, and file the proper paperwork and account for the payments. Then at the end of the fiscal year they have to file their returns. Additionally, there are costs associated with their workforce, e.g. healthcare and 401Ks, etc., so do not for a second think that taxes cannot hurt a business, they most definitely can.

Ryan in Texas

I'll assume the unverified information your provide is accurate. If conservatives do, in fact, pay more in taxes, do they also make more in income? If so, what's the ratio? That is, if you compare a poor liberal (and pays $0 in taxes) to a conservative who makes millions and pays 5% in taxes, well yeah, the conservative pays more in both percentage and dollar terms, but still not their fair share (even though the dollar amount may be huge).

As for the charitable contributions, take donations to churches out of the mix and I'll wager the advantage shifts over to the liberals. That's just my wild guess. Like you, I have no information to back it up.

Ryan that would be your guess because you are a friggin idiot; when you give to a Church it is not a donation, it is a tithe. The numbers that you hear about telling you that conservatives give more to charity than libs deals with non-profits and the amount declared on taxes.

Also, millionaires do not pay 5%, it is closer to 40% unless you are one of the thousands of millionaire libs in which case you pay 0%.

You stand corrected!

I see a lot of complaining about the expenses of a business. Epenses such as electricity, gas, and property taxes. The questions I have to all of those who complain about this and feel business should be cut a break because they are a business, 1. Did you think that running a business would be cheap? 2. Do you feel the same way about individual households? Because employees (not business owners) also pay property taxes, fuel expenses and electricity. And the "business provide the jobs" excuse won't fly.

Businesses will stay in business if the charities keep on giving or the scum give them the money.

How many small business have you observed which never have a customer yet they stay in business year after year. Why? Answer: the corporate gift.

Rothschild and Pavlov had many dogs.

cjjrwe and others

I also have owned both small businesses and a national corporation. All of the "taxes" you are complaining about are a known part of doing business. They should be built into your business model. Bernie is right. If your business fails in a relatively stable economy (which this is not), it is not because of the things you are naming.

This economy is a mess right now. That is not the fault of taxes. It can be laid on the government for not enforcing the regulations and oversight of the financial institutions as they should have. Unfortunately that is in the past and we can't go back. Greed ran amok and the government did nothing to stop them. We all are paying a huge price to fox this situation, and we will be for some time.

But the taxes, fees, and other expenses will always be a part of running a successful business. My first one failed because I did not take all of that into consideration. I learned from that and had a better cost-to-income ratio in future models. Careful planning and precise execution, including thought to possible increases and unanticipated costs, result in a successful business.

Seen Enough

Actually, I've owned "several businesses" because I start them, build them up, and sell them. But I know that won't change your mind. You go on with your bad self!

I think if you researched the data, the term poor liberla is an oxymoron, especially those who are in Washington. Members of Congress are millionaires. Sounds like hypocrisy to me.

Tommy-884763

First off, you were arguing with someone who probably agrees with you. That aside, giving to a church IS a donation. You can definitely write it off on your taxes. Churches are all 501(c)(3) entities. They pay no taxes and your contributions to them are tax deductable.

"Also, millionaires do not pay 5%, it is closer to 40% unless you are one of the thousands of millionaire libs in which case you pay 0%. "

Um, no. The highest tax rate is currently 35%, however, nobody actually pays that amount. If you make millions, even the slightest bit of tax planning should reduce your annual tax liability to no more than 20%. Nobody pays anything close to 40%. As I stated in an earlier post, Warren Buffet has said on record that he pays 17% in taxes, which is less than his secretary's tax rate.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/27/AR2007062700097.html

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2007/06/warren-buffet-p.html

Something New Please - You are right to think it strange for Tommy to attack me when we probably do agree. This is the busiest forum I can remember on newsvine.

There is alot of anger, and it seems odd that people can be so angrily against something (the tea parties) that they say is meaningless.

I'm not a "Churchy" but they do provide benefits to the community. Some of which are food to the hungry and counseling. Of course it also helps to instill morals (not saying it's the only way).

Tommy - chill out. You will never read in my posts calling someone an "idiot". I might be thinking it, but it takes way more than one post to get me there.

Look everybody, when was the last time CONSERVATIVES got together to PROTEST anything?

I seem to recall protesters in front of Bush's HOUSE for months at a time. (Until the surge worked and protest would only call attention to a Bush success - then the people protesting became silent. So were they only against war if it's unsuccessful?)

Something New Please - I'm sorry, but I'm not going to spend time gathering evidence for you. I think it was last week that Alan Giov. wouldn't believe that Clinton signed the repeal of Glass/Stengall Act in 1999. So I gathered the evidence and layed it out. He still doesn't accept it. It's congressional record!

And here I am still wasting time writing about it.

So no matter what I present, some will not believe what they don't want to hear.

That plus I'm not sure anyone will read all 1900 posts!

Ryan in Texas

I said that I accepted your facts. That doesn't change my argument. The rich in America pay a smaller portion of their income in taxes than the middle class. Of course, the poor pay nothing. That's why your math works. Warren Buffet pays 17% in taxes while his receptionist pays around 30%. That ain't right.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/27/AR2007062700097.html

Also, my argument on charitable contributions remains unassailed. Of course the conservatives give more. A) If you're rich, you get $.35 of every dollar contributed back at tax time as opposed to poor people who get $.15-.22. Also, the religion argument. I'd like to see the charitable contribution numbers if you take out religious donations. If you count religious donations, then my health club membership should count as a charitable contribution. And then there's the fact that poor people, for the most part, can't deduct charitable contributions because they don't itemize. No Schedule A, no such deduction. And then you have non-donation giving such as volunteering. You can't write it off (in most cases) but it's charity and there's no way to calculate it. My point is that there are several reasons for this disparity. It's not because conservatives are more compassionate.

Something New Please - You make some good points, but I don't understand the Gym membership thing. Last night I did my taxes, spent a long time entering all our deductions, but at the end the standard deduction was more. I guess we don't make enough to get to itemize.

However, I have seen data that shows poor people DONATE a larger percent of their income to charity. BUT POOR DOES NOT EQUAL LIBERAL. So please understand that a poor person can be conservative. It may well be that the poor that donate most are the most conservative.

Well, we'll have to talk more in the future. I post here to hear other views. And I do appreciate the time you spent thinking out your response.

These protesters are too stupid to realize how lucky they are, Bush would never have allowed them to protest anywhere near the White house.

President Bush has never been an advocate of the First Amendment. Even when he was governor of Texas, he prohibited demonstrations on the walkways in front of the governor's mansion, an area that had traditionally been used for peaceful protests.

As president, Bush has widened his restrictions on demonstrations against his policies. Anti-Bush protesters are now relegated to what are euphemistically called Free Speech Zones. These areas are cordoned off as far as a mile away from the president and the main thoroughfares, so that Bush cannot see the demonstrators, or their signs of protest, nor hear their chants.

The free speech enclosures are only for those who disagree with the administration's current policies. Those citizens who carry pro-Bush signs are allowed to line the street where the president's motorcade passes

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1129-03.htm

At least President Obama believes in free speech.

Something new...you must not know anything about owning a business. You can even pay taxes on social security!! Hmmm...SN-why dont you purchase a brain first then talk.

PWHOWP

Please explain how paying taxes on SS income has anything to do with owning a business. Incidentally, if you're living on SS alone, you're not paying federal income taxes.

-----------------------

Seen Enough

Are you seriously asking me to post confidential private information about myself on Newsvine? What have you been smoking? WOW!

That being said, you're right that selling a business doesn't mean the business was successful. However, whether I was successful at my endeavors or not is irrellevant to the point of our discussion. As usual, you want to change the subject. Let's recap:

We were talking about the effect of taxes on business.

I, speaking as a business owner, put in my two cents, as did others who clearly know what they're talking about.

You and another idiot responded with nonsense and personal attacks.

I respond to your flatulence with more reason.

Now, I quietly await yet another well thought, well reasoned argument from the Peanut Gallery. I'm giddy with anticipation. Please don't make me wait long.

Something New Please – Please read this “ We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, “ and then you tell me where it says that a when a man, by his own sweat, makes more than another that he is required to support that person. The Declaration states, “the pursuit of Happiness “ and I for one don’t believe it meant that any one has the right to expect any one else to support them. By the way, had you done any research you would know that the figures being cited by others are correct. You just don’t want to admit it to yourself because then your delusions would come to an end.

Folks:

This nonsensical, righteous indignation is very late in arriving.

Where were you all in the past decades when we were letting partisan politics kowtow to monied interests through the political action committees?

Were you having a spot of tea with your little finger crooked just so, while our best and brightest crooks, (I mean politicians, sorry....no I mean I am really sorry!), aligned the laws and business interests to allow everyone who works for a living to be destined to the probabilities of failure, and apparently by legal measures.

Perhaps you were nibbling a scone while the Social Security System was being systematically raided?

Maybe you were enjoying a cucumber sandwich as the health industry in all of its glory became a gigantic fraud and one of the major expenses that many do not have and many more have and soon will not be able to afford?

As you wiped the crumbs from your mouth did you not notice that the financial bedrock our country was founded on was being turned to quicksand by the legerdemain of high finance by companies deemed by politicians to be "too big to fail" and deemed by me and people like me to be "too big for their britches"?

Shame on all of those in power and control for being self centered and greedy.

Shame on us for voting for the PAC "bag" men and women who do the bidding of the highest bidders, not the taxpayers.

Shame on us for believing them.

Shame on us for forgetting what true values are.

I believe it is the politicians of special interest that need to have the bag unfurled on them, but I further believed we enabled this to happen.

Good Luck, you will need it!

Taxes are a necessary evil. Those on the other side of the argument; research what happens when a minority of people share the majority of the wealth. That's why progressive taxes MUST exist in a country with capitalism. The government exists to protect ALL people, including those that weren't successful and don't have a lot of money to throw.

Pretty much all I wish to say. If you disagree with me fine, cast your vote in the next election.

Oh --not sure how it can be said that "Something new please" is posting incorrect facts...his sources are cited and verified, unlike his opponents'

Ah, the ditto heads actually left the house. They came up from the lair in the basement from where the spend the days trolling the message boards waiting to spew back the nonsence that their god Rush has deemed important.

And some how this was an auspicious event. To hear the last collective gasp of the GOP as it circled the drain down in Crawford. Tomorrow they'll raise a banner proclaiming "Mission Accomplished" from an overpass. And bask in its warm glow.

Tommorow Texas will sucede from the Nation. We'll visit tho. Not often you get to see racist rednecks in their own habitat. You can call it Bushland. And you can have GWB as your King. And he can start wars in far away lands for no apparent reason. Until you run out of money and then you can be Mexico NE.

Increase in taxes, less money for the consumer to spend. I have a small family business and the overhead is killing us. Yes, taxes are too high, but combined with the insurance rates on all we are required to carry will do many of us in soon.

It's not poor business practices doing US automakers in.....it's the rotten economy....the greedy rich got richer and the Government tossed more $$ their way.

Yes, the current highest tax bracket is 35%, however, when you get to a certain point, you have to figure your taxes two ways, the normal way, and then the AMT way, and you have to pay the higher of the two. Congress has stated that they will change the threshold for AMT (Alternative Minimum Tax for those of you who don't know) because it impacts many dual income families and small business owners. BTW, AMT and income levels phase out many of your deductions and credits, and you can actually pay more than 35% with AMT.

The tax code is progressive, so the more you make the more you pay. Also, there is no point of diminishing returns as far as taxes and income goes, it is always better to make more and pay more taxes, than to make less and get taxed less.

For Buffet to be paying 17% of his income he must be posting many losses to offset his income.

That's because taxes decreased more for the wealthy than they did for the middle class, Mar. How's that for fair?

Hope your business picks up!

Something new please,

What? You've never heard of overhead costs that come out of profits? Without the overhead a business never grows or changes as needed. Profits are almost always reinvested and for small business almost never go primarily into anybody's pockets. You know, I think there's a message board for the 12 and under set somewhere. That would better fit your knowledge of business and taxation. Fk u and the other taxing lefties. We've woken up. When I say "We" I mean those of us left in this nation who still espouse the same ideals as our forefathers. The scariest thing for you "lefty" is that we also have the same willingness to fight for what we know is right. The IRS needs to die, figuratively of course, and go away. I don't care about the jobs lost. Flat tax here we come. No more 2-4K returns for people who pay nothing in taxes but claim head of household and child tax credit. They therefore profit off of our taxes. Welfare does not end with what we see in social programs. Every year just after tax season, my ex wife who makes nothing a pays nothing in taxes gets a big check for NOTHING. She is also on medicare and tries to put my kids on it all the time. They live with me and I'll jump off of a bridge before I use the money pryed out others pocket by the government without at least earning it as an employee or soldier.

cjjrwe

Actually, Buffet pays 17%, not because of losses, but because most of his income is in the form of dividends and LT cap-gains. Also, he gives away a lot of money.

Eric High

Overhead coming out of profits? Who does your taxes? Overhead comes out before AGI. It's an above-the-line deduction. Are you being serious or just trying to test me?

And reinvesting profits 100% for small businesses? Go ask the pizza shop on the corner if they reinvest their profits. Or the hair salon on the other corner. You've got to be kidding. Also, if you buy any kind of capital asset with the money, you get a depreciation expense which will offset income. If you expense it outright (say, lease a company car), then all expenses get deducted pre-tax. I don't know where you got these silly ideas, but you're 100% wrong.

Ryun in Texas: I believe you made a freudian slip when you stated that conservatives pay the most taxes and give more to charities. If they pay most of the taxes, then they are the top [very small percentage] of wealth in this country and off course they keep most of it by [if they actually do] writing off large sums to charities come tax time. It's time the "real middle class" in this country wakes up and smells the coffee and stop acting like P Ps [PAVLOV'S PUPPIES] and stop being so easily "classically conditioned" as Pavlov's puppies were. Instead of tea bags, bells like Pavlov used in his experiments should be the main smybol of the tea party protesters.

yep you are right. That is why obama wants to unload your healthcare benefit off the small business backs so that you would not have to provide that benefit to your employees and thus have more cash available.

we need to be helping small businesses with tax breaks and we need ot get health care out of business responsibility. Large businesses however, e.g. huge corporations should be paying their fair share of taxes and not hiding overseas. Actually, like obama said, they can hide offshore if they want, but they wil not get any ax breaks from the US government. ONly thos corporations should get any breaks whatsoever should be those that keep jobs IN this country.

I attended a tea party in St Paul, MN tonight. There were about 10,000 to 15,000 thousand average citizens with their spouses, families, and friends that were out there to have their voices and opinions heard. They were not angry. They verbalized that they believed that the government spending has gotten way out of control and the government's control and power over its citizens is increasing and that is not the direction they believe is good for the country. Many of the people at the tea party normally do not get out and get involved but I think they are tired of having their opinions dismissed or not heard.

I have not run into one person, no matter political affiliation, that believes the government is grossly inefficient and ineffective with both money and control. Many Americans are not paying 60% in taxes, between federal tax, state tax, property tax, gas taxes, sales tax, tax on cell phones, tax on the telephone bill and so on. Enough already. How are young people ever going to be able to save for a home and save enough money to put their kids through college? Or do we all just throw up our hands and stop trying and hope the government will take care of us. That is not life with integrity. And the economics don't work. Who is going to pay for this? I believe, the answer is the American taxpayer. And those of you who feel you will not be affected personally; I think it might be time to do the math. I think you are naive to think only the rich will be affected.

There are certain taxes or fees you pay whether you make money or not. You must pay in most states to do business there. This is really a type of tax. Most are called fees. You must have a business license, insurance, utilities, gas tax, property tax, and etc.

Your utility taxes are going to increase greatly very shortly. When you consider they want you to use electric cars, what will these increases bring???

\We already have more people getting checks from the "Government" than pay taxes. Very soon, our economy will topple if drastic changes are not made.

But, considering Obama wants a "world economy" - he is chopping us down to equal everyone else by making our dollar less effective on the market by prints trillions of worthless bills.

This is why Europe likes him, they will be able to own the US as our dollar falls to the value of a peso and they keep the Euro up.

Probably 99% of you have no idea what he protests are about. They are about out of controll government spending and the much higher taxes that will be required to pay for it.

On another note I have seen in other discussions such as this a mention of how Obama has cut taxes a little on certain taxpayers. Then I see how he wants to increase taxes on utilities which will result in the utilities passing the increases in their taxes thru to the consumer so we will have a net tax increase.

Probably 99% of you either don't have a clue concerning what the TEA parties are about or you don't care. They are about out of controll government spending and the massive increases in our taxes that will be required to pay for these increases in spending especially if they continue.

Many of you just do not get it. When a person says "government" it includes Local, State and Federal - not just Federal. To really know what you pay in taxes - all these must be added in.

Anything that is required by law is a "government" mandated fee.

The costs of doing business must all be added together. Whether it is a wage, tax or fee makes little difference - it is still a figure that must be factored into the finished product.

Many businesses have moved overseas because our Corporate Taxes are the second highest in the world. States give some businesses breaks so they will stay and not move away. Is this fair??? NO, but it happens everyday.

We are all supposed to be treated equal but we are not. I agree with "Mallard Duck": I will pay my taxes when I get nominated for a cabinet post.

You can't ppossibly be in bussiness.

RE: "Probably 99% of you either don't have a clue concerning what the TEA parties are about or you don't care."

I think this comment applies to 99.9% of the T party attendees and complainers on this blog. It feels ridiculous and appalling to read about blame placed on the Obama administration's 85 days in office when it took 8 years to create the mess we are in. I bet few of you considered the idiocy of Bush's scheme in sending $300/$600 to 'all' of us as an economic stimulus plan. It probably bought some of you 100 packs of cigarettes or a new TV, but it certainly did not help our economy to drain the federal coffers. Recovery is going to take time on national and global levels, and we all need to find a way to support our government's strengths and new ideas so our country can finally move forward again. Remember, it took 8 years to get where we are..............

And Obama is draining the coffers even faster. The protests are not about what Bush did as much as they are about the 10 times worse things Obama has done or proposed. Driving us even deeper into debt will do nothing to stimulate the economy it will do just the opposite.

We totally agree.......... I wonder if people remember that USSR stands for Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

• It's not true at all that high taxes destroy economic activity or growth IF they are progressive (The richer you are more you pay) as a matter of fact during the 1950s and 1960s the tax rate on the top income brackets was 91% and 70% respectively and this during the two decade post war boom. I should also add that the U.S. deficit was higher than it is now in 1946 and it still didn't stop the boom from happening. Probably helped it.
• Wikipedia:
• During the Great Depression and World War II the top income tax rate rose again. In the Internal Revenue Code of 1939, the top rate was 75%. The top rate reached 94% during the war and remained at 91% until 1964. In 1964 the top rate was decreased to 70% (1964 Revenue Act), then to 50% in 1981.
• The Tax Reform Act of 1986 reduced the top rate to 28%, at the same time raising the bottom rate from 11% to 15% (in fact 15% and 28% became the only two tax brackets).

The term the long boom is used by some historians to describe the period from approximately 1947 to the oil crisis of 1973 in which nearly all OECD economies experienced strong year-on-year growth. This was in part achieved through a complex number of factors mostly planned at the end of World War II. After the war, the major powers were determined not to repeat the mistakes of the Great Depression. They established the Breton Woods system setting up international institutions designed to ensure stability in the world economy. This was achieved through a number of factors, including promoting free trade instituting the Marshal Plan and the use of Keynesian Economics (Keynesian economics = high taxes on wealthy and corporations, highly regulated economy, government pumping money into the economy, in the case of this boom it was mostly military spending because of the Cold Waretc).

The economies of Japan, Germany, France and Italy did particularly well, each of these countries caught up to and exceeded the GDP of the United Kingdom during these years, even as the UK itself was experiencing the greatest absolute prosperity in its history. In France, this period is often looked back to with nostalgia as the Trente Glorieuses or "Thirty Glorious Years", while the economies of Germany and Austria were characterized by Wirtschaftswunder and in Italy it is called Miracolo economico.

Most developing countries also did well in this period, especially compared to the 1980s and 1990s, which were plagued by debt and financial crises, with the notable exceptions of India and China.

Some tax protesters and others opposed to income taxes cite what they contend is evidence that the Sixteenth Amendment was never "properly ratified" based in large part on materials sold by William J. Benson. In December of 2007, Benson's "Defence Reliance Package" containing his non-ratification argument which he offered for sale on the internet, was ruled by a federal court to be a "fraud perpetrated by Benson" that had "caused needless confusion and a waste of the customers' and the IRS' time and resources." The court stated: "Benson has failed to point to evidence that would create a genuinely disputed fact regarding whether the Sixteenth Amendment was properly ratified or whether United States Citizens are legally obligated to pay federal taxes."

Hey LIBERALS! NEWS FLASH!

A lot of you keep asking where where the conservatives the last 8 years? Well we helped vote in a lot of your left majority back in 2006 listening to their lying pie holes, Just vote us in! we will change things! Well we did! and look what it got us!

YOU CANNOT use that reasoning any longer! We tried your way and it was a huge mistake! 2010 is around the corner and things are going to change in DC!

"That is, if you compare a poor liberal (and pays $0 in taxes) to a conservative who makes millions and pays 5% in taxes, well yeah, the conservative pays more in both percentage and dollar terms"

You seem to be ignoring the fact that those who make millions do NOT pay an equal percentage and just pay more because they make more. The percentage that they pay out of their income is significantly higher, a lot higher than the little 5% number you're using as an example. So the wealthy pay not just more, but a higher percentage of their incomes as well. It's those wealthy that own the businesses and pay for the rest of our salaries. So when the wealthy (aka the JOB CREATORS) get screwed over, it affects their ability to expand their businesses, and it's the rest of us that lose our jobs as a result. History has proven this every single time, when you rob from the job creators, it's EVERY financial class that gets hurt. You can either help every financial class, which means helping the rich expand so the rest of us can benefit as well, or you hurt us all. You can't just tax the rich and think that magically us poor people aren't getting nailed because of it.

Thats just horse hockey. Any business that cannot pay its taxes is doomed anyway and should be put out of its misery.

A government that is big enough to give you all you want (always that which is taken from your neighbor) is big enough to take all you have away. Our founders understood this, We will have to learn it the hard way.

Beckwolf, what is your solution to the tax problem. Obama paid 900,000 in taxes this past year on sales from his books (yeah right) but made over 3 million. How much should he have paid in your enlighted opinion? Half, 60 percent? What about all those in sports, what about all those in the entertainment business? Maybe we should simply increase the tax on going to the movies and require the actors and actresses to work for scale, like we are doing to the CEOs?

The tea parties are only partially about taxes, its more about an unresponsive government one that does what it wants regardless of the people. It is a grassroots movement, one that will build until it overruns the corruption in Washington. More and more people are fed up with the likes of Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Barney Franks and Chris Dodd. They are equally fed up with Spector and Snow and Baynor and everyone else that is too scared to cut spending when spending needs to be cut, to cowardly to stand up for what they know in their hearts are right. Coming from NJ, I don't expect the rest of the country to pay for the stupidity that controls Trenton and the massive give away programs that the state government has implemented, yet you and everyone else is through the earmarks that are now weighing down every single American. Conversely, I don't expect to pay for a high speed rail line that runs from LA to Vegas, nor should I be expected to pay for grasshopper research in Utah.

That's what these protests are about - irresponsibility in Washington. No party has a monopoly on that, both are wrong and all elected officials should be returned home without benefits. They are the real bandits here, not the CEOs, not the COOs, - the Washington based priates must either return to listening to the people or be run out of town. They create class warfare, they are the ones that pointed an angry finger at AIG and yet, look what they did for themselves, they gave themselves a raise, they even hired some of those who were paid bonus money after being bailed out.

Focus your anger, your displeasure not on other Americans who are probably more like you then not, but rather on those that truely got us into this mess, "our elected officials" who as long as they get their share of the kickback, they don't care about you or your opinions. That much is evident by their actions that have placed so much debt on the future generations that it is likely in the next generation or two, the county will collapse from the weight.

As far as taxes are concerned, I challenge you to an experiment. Take one dollar of earned income and subtract you federal and state taxes from it and see what you have left. Now subtract gasoline taxes from what is left (proportionate because what is left will not buy a gallon of gasoline). Subtract sales tax from what is left. I will be very surprised if your left with more then twenty cents for discretionary spending. What that means is that for every dollar that you earn, you get to keep 20 cents, the government in one form or another gets 80 cents...try it see where you come out.

Beckwolf

The wealthy do not pay a higher percentage. I know what the tax code says. They still don't pay a higher percentage:

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2007/06/warren-buffet-p.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/27/AR2007062700097.html

Good points guys... but, if your operating expenses go up, then you have to make a change... If you are selling an item or service, you need to be at least be as competive as the next guy or you are out (China is a good example of taking away market share). You must: cut back (but still have the 'rent'), lay off workers (seems like that is what is going on), outsource the work (ever call India for tech support), move to another city (or move across the border)..... hmmmm

Nothing wrong with FICA in theory... but don't give it away to non contributors (like illegal aliens)...

Energy costs are down now, but with the BO retaliation against the oil companies (which the marxists intend to nationalize at first opportunity... er a crisis), the domestic drilling has been stopped(gee, not much in the papers on that). What do you think that will eventually do to this economy when we are more than 75% dependent on imported energy?

Define a fair tax? If you work at your own business 12 hours per day, make money, create jobs, and contribute to the prosperity of this country (the givers), under the present system, you are severely penalized. The libs will take your earnings and re-distribute your 'success' to the couch potatoes and government workers (ever heard of a gov't lay-off?). A consumption tax with no loop holes is a more equitable alternative. It is based on your participation in the economy... working people who earn their money will still pay more (which is the fair definition of socialists, the takers). In fact, everybody pays thier "FAIR" share... even the 6 million illegals who are taking the 7 million unemployed American's jobs.

The system that this socialist administration is ramming down your throat is structured in the Castro-Chavez mold (why do you think that Castro wants to help so badly). It has never worked anywhere... repeat anywhere in the world... as in never, ever. This philosophy is based on extreme power and greed... beyond what you have witnessed in the financial markets.

I just love the way you kidddos talk about history and toss around your statistics... and blindly attach yourselves to the "new and improved" government sugar-tit for your hand-outs. You might just ask someone who was there.... This country has succeded on the system that you are now trying to destroy... the one that created this country's wealth. Has 60 years of welfare helped anyone yet... or has it created an uneducated, uninformed government-dependent class? Did giving welfare mortgages to people that had no hope of paying the money back help them? Can we spend our way to prosperity? Is there enough value in this economy for the govenment to siphon the profits from the backs of the workers and give it to the non-contributors?

Do you really think that Roosevelt "saved" America with his New Deal? If so, you need to go back and ask the public educational system for your money back. You have been short changed in academia as well.

I see these people writing that we should know that businesses cost money.

Perhaps they should realize that if the government breaks our back with taxes, then we'll be forced to downsize so that same person writing could be the one who loses their job because we can't afford them anymore....

Cigarette, gasoline, and liquor taxes are State taxes, Kentucky, although I feel for you. As for business taxes, I can't speak, I am a mere worker, when I can get work. The problem is not taxes in general, it is a crappy economy. The small business owner can't make a profit because the American consumer is broke! Then the business owner starts to go broke, so he doesn't make any new hires - once again, less customers. All this time, the Federal Reserve is printing money out of air, devaluing the dollar. This lessens spending power, neccessitating tax increases to pay for services budgeted last year according to a higher-valued dollar. Just my opinion.

Let me get this straight...in order to protest spending and waste, the Faux News crowd bought hundreds of thousands of tea bags?

If only the protests were about something as simple as taxes. They had more to do with how the government decides to spend our money. Instead of being fiduciary stewards of what should be seen as a "natural resource" which is not limitless, they pass a budget they did not even read. Oh gee how did those nasty bonuses ever get in the bill...must have missed them in the Cliff notes version that was jammed down the gullets of the taxpayer. If you want to see the economic future of the US based on the brains of what we have in Congress, take a look at California. Politicians are in office for one reason..to stay in office. The best way to do do that is pander to their base, not make decisions that help our country prosper and grow. Right now the easy way is class warfare not intelligent debate. Oh well for a country that thrives on "reality shows" and hollywood bright lights, we have gotten the "leadership" in Washington we deserve.

You are fallling for it. "Trickle down" and this tea thing all invented by Republican hardliners to justify taxing middle class. This tea party just streghtened my Democratic stance. Totally a ploy and every protest looks like a RNC convention. Sickening. And where were all these "disgruntled Americans" over the last eight years? Get off my TV!!!

Tea parties should become parties that gather signatures to start removing the morons in government who feel they deserve a raise as the country is in economic turmoil.

As it is the very same congressional morons who have been in office for more than twenty years that created this situation. Time to vote out all professional politicians.

That is change you can count on.

I and everyone else in America pay taxes even the poor whether it be a sales tax to eat or federal taxes to pay for the budgets that no one can seem to stay within.

Yes those who make more money pay more money in taxes. But those who do pay more do not receive anymore services provided by that tax money then those who pay none as a matter of fact they receive less because they worked their lives away trying to raise families and put children through college etc to provide for a better life.

The government - Congress and the Senate point fingers at each other and get people divided on issues to get re-elected. That is the sole purpose.

A paper compared Madoff to Barney Franks, great analogy who is worse. You know what who cares. Its time to rid our system of over pompous, useless, self serving morons like Franks. That includes both sides. Republicans and Democrats, as it appears they do not and have not listened to the masses for many years.

This all started in 1974 with the community re-investment act and ended with the very reason the Glass Stegall act was created to start with and it was rescinded. Low and behold guess what happened? Exactly what the Glass Stegall act was suppose to prevent.

Its time to take and make government afraid of its people again as currently they have no fear.

My opinion only have a blast tearing it up.

My mantra will be to vote out all those who are career politicians. They have been and are useless on both sides.

Why does Pelosi fly a private jet back and forth across the country at a cost of 40k a trip that the taxpayers pay?

Because we allow it. Until we pull the plug from these clowns they will continue to fleece the working class and raid the benefits of the poor.

###...This is the main point you retarded Boob...When your profits are burned up by taxes...This leave's very little profit to expand or just maintain your business...Go back to school Jethro Bodean (Something new please).

Remember how the Faux News people called protests during Bush's reign unamerican and other such nonsense, but now that they are organizing the protests, protests are patriotic.

I noticed msnbc and nbc managed to show their ass during tea party day by reporting that the attendants were "@!$%# hating rednecks", and I find that you also love to label people and evidently children that has no idea what your talking about. I use children as it's the first thing you use against Americans when you want something so

what is it you want from us, a free pass so Obama can continue giving money away and continue ruining this country in his anger type ridden way and you want to help him because you hate America the same way he does and you are angry too and hate hard working people that peacefully disagree with just about everything he has done so far and you people show the same mental signs that he does and hope doom and debt upon on the rest of us. What a sick bunch of left wingers you are, sick sick sick.

You haven't been watching CNN then, there's alot of jokes running on the teabaggers.

Ah yes, looking forward to all those rightwinger ladies demonstrating their techniqus.

2000 cities???? by the end of the day it'll be 5000.... I bet some of them rightwing ladies have some great tecniques though... maybe I'll do some teabagging...

there has been no media blackout. I cannot remember the last time such small protests gathered so much media attention!!!

But then again, you did a nice job Berry Norwood of using the Neil Cavuto "here at Fox we're fair and balanced unlike those other guys" talking point!

You know, the one Neil came up with when he was lying about Fox News covering the million man march...

ACORN possies have been dispatched nationwide to mount counter demonstrations at Post Offices in support of all the government spending.... wonder where their marching orders came from ??...MSLSD...ooops.....MSNBC....will claim it's a true grass roots movement and give them plenty of coverage......

Mike

Please give me a reference on the ACORN involvement. Since they are a grant-funded not-for-profit, they would have little money to spend on what you are suggesting, especially in an election budget year that just cost them so much. And I cannot imagine that they would get enough volunteers to respond to this nation-wide.

W Berry Norwood

all you would have to do is click on CNN, turn the channel to CNN - or you can just sit here and whine and throw out an inaccurate statement.........

DrowningGrover

Guess what this now officially the largest mass protest in history!! Drowning small protest????

seen enough

I did not deny ACORN's involvement. Please read my posts more carefully before you attack me. If I was going to deny the involvement of ACORN in any counter-protests, I would have had facts to offer.

I asked you to provide some documentation that they were operating out of their grant limitations. You immediately assumed that I was "denying" something, when in fact I was asking for information. You provided information I was already aware of, but never answered my question.

I have actually been investigating what you said, but I am still unable to find any factual information on this, which would, I believe, be in violation of their grant. I cannot find this information, so I cannot act on it. If you have something I can use, let me know.

If you don't, just be honest and say so. But there is no need to invent reasons to attack me.

burger -

The largest mass protest in history? Who told you that? Sean Hannity? LOL

I'm thinking the wingnuts are using their fuzzy math and counting the same 100 people who show up in each city every time they decide to have one of these things. Haven't they had like 3 so far, and I'm guessing the same exact people show up at all of them, just like they will on July 4th if they decide to have another one then. What I want to know is why the need to waste all of these perfectly good tea bags? Pretty soon, we're gonna run out of tea and I'm going to have to start drinking lemonade!

Just another dumb stunt and bad idea from a party with no good ideas of it's own. The Republican Party is standing in it's grave filling it full of tea and dirt and have no idea of what they are doing.

CNN had a little more than a paragraph about someone in DC throwing a box of tea bags over the white house fence which security then responded to ensure it was not a threat to security. You had to look very hard to find it and then they put a twist, in my opinion, to minimize the American citizens who were trying to voice their opinion that they did not support the level of spending that was occurring and which ultimately we will all have to pay for regardless of income, in some way.

I ask people all the time - If you have 1 Million dollars do you think you or someone in your community could be effective with the money or do you think the government in Washington DC would more effectively use it for the good of the American citizens. Everyone - regardless of their political affiliation says the government would most certainly waste the money. There would be little if anything to show for the $1 Million.

Got a good laugh reading the article. What a sad display of American ignorance. However, I am heartened by the fact it is only very infintesmal few that share these views. I reckon it gets them away from Fox's boob tube, Hannity and the lot. It's good that you get a little time in the sun once a year.

I can't stop laughing at all these white guys out there "tea-bagging". If you look closely, I'll bet you find Ted Haggard and Larry Craig in at least one of those crowds. Wait...do we know who organized the meetings for all of these "tea-baggers"? Maybe Ted and Larry were hoping for easy pickins'.

Guess what this now officially the largest mass protest in history!! Drowning small protest????

omg, they are FAR FROM the largest protests in history. Please read the FoxNews headline again (I saw the same headline you are referring to). It says largest "TAX protest" in history.

They were quite small...

LOL @ you!

I watch a bit of MSNBCs coverage. There was a woman joking about it, and she looked very much like some lesbians husband. NBC and its affiliates are so far left and so out of touch it makes me sick. They need to remember there are more of us and when the day of reckoning comes we will remember them.

William...more of who? Teabaggers? LOL

It's not on ABC's Nightline either. Hey liberal media, you can ignore today's protests but they still happened!

Aqua...I think the problem is that liberals aren't as in to teabagging as conservatives are. LOL...I could do this all night. From here on in, the republican party will be referred to as the "teabagger" party.

Carianne, I hear a little fear in your LOL. Yes, go to your room and live in fear. Nothing small about today's protests. Next ones will be even bigger.

Aqua...I'm guessing you don't know what teabagging is. There was absolutely NO fear in that LOL. That was all hysterical laughter.

"I cannot remember the last time such small protests gathered so much media attention!!"

How about Iraq? A few dozen protestors is enough to make the front page. Well, it was when Bush was President at least, now it doesn't seem to matter as much. You'll have some protestors, and the media takes that as a cue that EVERYONE in that part of the world is against what we're doing. Nevermind that turning the camera in the other direction would show those who support us. It was amazing how little press toppling Hussein seemed to bring, with tens of thousands of supporters there knocking down the statue and the celebrations throughout the nation. But bring a few protestors against us near a camera, and you have a story for the front page on almost every major US news source.

Then let's look at the protests here at home. The protests against Bush right here in the months ending Bush's presidency received a ridiculous amount of media attention. The funny thing is, those numbers were LOWER than the protests going on right now. Therefore, your "I cannot remember the last time such small protests gathered so much media attention!!"comment, intended to make the protests seem like just a few squabblers, fails miserably.

Cnn is a news station and this is not news. It is a grandstand plot to try and "save" the huge tax break for the rich that will expire next year. All these people who participted in this are just tools for the rich. If they meant what they said they would have been in the street long before now. Bush and the Republican congress's ran up close to 7 trillion dollars in deficit spending and they sat home quietly. As of April the first the middle income people get to keep whatever they got in this temporary tax reduction plus additional benfits which is good for the country. Remember this tax reduction was temporary and depended on the people in the higher brackets reinvesting in America and creating jobs for Ameicans. They did not so do not feel sorry for them.

Atta boy Joe, keep thinking this is a republican plot as the grassroots steamroller draws closer and closer to you and your narrow thinking colleagues. At some point you might put aside your predetermined opinions and actually listen to what is being said, and at that point, you might even be forced to agree, Washington is out of control and needs to be reigned in. Notice I did not say Democrats or Republicans, both are to blame and need to be replaced.

Correction: CNN is entertainment, not a credible news source.

Not only Did CNN make jokes the Reporter covering Chicago was just as bad as Lingbaugh when she rudely interupted the gentleman holding his two year old child and said this was a right wing movement. I am an Independent. Msnbc news made fun too!! All I want is common sense not the uncommon sense that is going on.

So, it has finally begun. The answer to '1984' is '1776'.

The movement must continue forward and hopefully more of "WE THE PEOPLE" will awaken.

"WE THE PEOPLE" must realize that both republicans and democrats must come together as one "WE THE PEOPLE" to end this nonsense. All of this started with the inception of the Federal Reserve and has continued to get worse until this very day.

Now "WE THE PEOPLE" are bailing out the rich on Wall-Street, Corporate CEO's who ship our jobs overseas, and continually pay ever rising taxes to a government who stopped listening to us a long time ago. "WE THE PEOPLE" must know that the two-headed one party government has been selling us out for a long time now.

There are far bigger fish out there than Bernie Madoff. I think he is the scapegoat. But, if we look even deeper in the waters we'll be able to catch some of these bigger fish and force government to exact the justice they so richly deserve.

Continue to awaken America. Turn off ABCNNBCBS and Fox News.

infowars.com

whatreallyhappened.com

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04032009/watch.html

americansworking.com

The United States is in Deep Doo-Doo

Imagine for a moment that someone inherits a farm. Let's say that the farm has good topsoil, a good well, good breeding stock, good seed, and excellent farm equipment in good repair. Prior to passing into the control of the present owner the farm did a good business selling vegetables, meat, and dairy products to the local market, and it made a small profit.

But let us suppose for a moment that the present owner of the farm doesn't understand farming, or isn't even really interested in learning. The present owner has no objection to standing around looking good, so he stays at the farm, standing in front of it, looking good to passers by.

Of course, the bills still come in, so our farmer puts them on his credit card. When that bill comes due he uses another credit card, Then another. Pretty soon the interest payments alone are higher than his bills and the banks get nervous and call him. No problem. Our farmer sells the tractor, takes the money around to the various credit cards, the food store, the utilities, and pays off all his bills. Then he stands around in front of the farm looking good to passers-by, the lord of his domain.

Well, the bills still come in. Again the credit cards get loaded up. So, this time our farmer sells the harvester. Then later on, the cattle, then the chickens, then the seeds, then he leases the well to his neighbor and finally sells the top soil from his farm to another farm down the road whose soil is getting tired. The cash is taken around to the various creditors, the food store, the utilities, etc.

Now at this point, our farmer thinks everything is okay. The bills are paid, he has a little cash in his pocket, and everything is fine.

Of course, you know better. The farm simply does not exist any more; it's just an empty lot with a few buildings, and soon they will be gone as well. The path from the farmer's present condition to seizure of the property for unpaid taxes is a foregone conclusion, even if the farmer doesn't look far enough ahead to see it.

Poor, dumb, stupid farmer.

That farmer is our government, and our business leaders.

Just as our hypothetical farm has lost its soil, livestock, seed, and farm equipment, America has lost its manufacturing ability. Short sighted business leaders, with as little interest in manufacturing as our farmer had in farming, decided their own personal bonuses would be higher if they simply sold their factories rather that ran them. After WW2, the 27 American TV companies including Zenith, Emerson, RCA, GE, etc. led the world in TV technology. Then, the owners of the patents on TV technology decided they didn't need to dirty their hands by actually making the TV sets themselves any more, and they started selling licenses to manufacture, which the Japanese bought.

By 1987, the only remaining American TV company was Zenith. The patent holders get their money, but the American products which can be sold overseas are gone, along with the jobs to make them. (Today Zenith is owned by a Korean electronics company.)

The same happened in high-tech electronics. The integrated circuit was invented in the United States. But rather than focus on selling integrated circuits, the companies that owned that technology sold the machines to MAKE integrated circuits around the world, and now America sells very few chips anywhere. The patent holders have their money, but the cash flow from sales of manufactured goods, and the jobs that go with them, are gone. When Seymour Cray needed custom chips for his supercomputers, he had to order them from Japan.

The same thing has been happening in aviation. The airplane was invented in the United States, and through the 60s, we sold a lot of them around the world. But lately, all aircraft sales to foreign countries involve "offsets", a portion of the core technology that gets licensed to the purchasing nation and gets manufactured there. Bit by bit, the core technology gets bled off, taking with it jobs, and cash flow from the sale of those manufactured products. Along the way, the rights to manufacture American inventions outside America leak away on a steadily increasing basis. Even the mighty F-16 is now being manufactured overseas, under license.

To cover the loss of manufacturing jobs, our government has invented the catch phrase "service economy". This is the idiotic notion that we don't need to actually sell manufactured products; that we can grow and prosper our nation by doing each other's laundry for a fee. To conceal the loss of manufacturing jobs, the government has legislated into existence thousands upon thousands of useless paper-shuffling jobs, and declared their necessity by fiat. The most obvious is the income tax which has been so obfuscated by the government that half of you had to rely on an outside expert to figure out just what all those incomprehensible words really meant. By this device, the government has replaced those jobs that made products to sell with an equal number of jobs that produce nothing whatsoever of any worth, except to keep the unemployment figures down. This over-burdening of the American people with gratuitous regulations and paperwork has accomplished nothing except to obfuscate the loss of manufacturing jobs, and to transform the American character from innovators and inventors creating new products to that of minor clerks, peeking under each other's seat cushions for lost change.

So, with most of our manufacturing now gone, just what DOES America make? Trouble, mostly. With 4% of the world's population and 18% of the economy, we have 50% of all the lawyers, all looking to make a killing by looting those few industries that still call America home (like Microsoft). Kids don't want to be scientists and engineers; they've seen how little such people are valued in our country. Based on recent history, kids see the "big bucks" are in corporate law, specifically investment banking, leveraged buyouts, greenmail, junk bonds, in short what other countries describe as "trying to make money grow by shaking it side to side".

With America's ability to actually produce products that can compete on the open world market in decline, it's no wonder that the balance of trade is the problem it is. Nobody buys our export products because we just don't make that many any more, and like or not, we have to buy our appliances from the people who make them, which are NOT Americans. (When Ampex invented the VCR, they didn't even bother trying to find an American company to make it, they immediately sold the rights to Japan).

So, what do all these countries on the plus side of the trade imbalance do with their surplus billions? Well, they have been loaning it right back to us!

Our government engages in a practice politely called "deficit spending". Other terms which would aptly describe the practice include "counterfeiting" and "check kiting", but it all comes down to the same thing; spending money one does not actually have.

What would be a prison offense for a normal citizen was rendered legal for the government by the Federal Reserve Act. This was not a popular piece of legislation. In fact the Democrats had campaigned in 1912 on a platform of rejection of the creation of a private bank in charge of a fiat money system. Nevertheless, on December 23, 1913, taking advantage of the absence of congressmen opposed to the creation of a fiat monetary system during the Christmas break, the Federal Reserve Act was passed.

Years later, during the great depression, Congressman Louis T. McFadden (who served twelve years as Chairman of the Committee on Banking and Currency) asked for congressional investigations of criminal conspiracy to establish the privately owned 'Federal Reserve System'. He requested impeachment of Federal officers who had violated oaths of office both in establishing and directing the Federal Reserve -- imploring Congress to investigate an incredible scope of overt criminal acts by the Federal Reserve Board and Federal Reserve Banks. McFadden even suggested that the Federal Reserve deliberately triggered the great stock market crash of 1929, in order to eventually force the passage of the Emergency Banking Act of March 9, 1933, which suspended the gold standard.

In describing the FED, McFadden remarked in the Congressional Record, House pages 1295 and 1296 on June 10, 1932:

"Mr. Chairman, we have in this country one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal reserve banks. The Federal Reserve Board, a Government Board, has cheated the Government of the United States and the people of the United States out of enough money to pay the national debt. The depredations and the iniquities of the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal reserve banks acting together have cost this country enough money to pay the national debt several times over. This evil institution has impoverished and ruined the people of the United States; has bankrupted itself, and has practically bankrupted our Government. It has done this through the misadministration of that law by which the Federal Reserve Board, and through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it".

Why all the fuss over the gold standard?

Well it goes back to the original Founding Fathers and the meaning of the word "dollar". "Dollar" is actually a weight measure of silver, 371.25 grains, to be exact. Our American silver dollars are actually heavier, since other metals were added for durability. But that 371.25 grains of silver WAS the dollar, matching in weight an unbroken chain of accepted monetary units that reached back through the Spanish Milled Dollar, the Dutch Daller, back to the German Thaler; the product of a silver mine which sold its product in coins of an exact weight. The Coinage Act of 1792 defined our dollar to exactly match in weight the silver dollars in use around the world, and then defined the gold dollar to be that amount of gold which would equal the worth of silver in a silver dollar, 24.75 grains, 1/15 the weight of the silver in a silver dollar.

So, what's wrong with this? Nothing really. When you, as a citizen, hold a silver dollar or a gold dollar in your hand, you hold that actual worth of metal. Nothing the government can do can change the worth of the money in your control.

Take the Roman Silver Denarius pictured above. The Roman Empire is long gone, but the money that Rome issued still has worth because the coins themselves had inherent worth. Long after the collapse of the empire, Roman silver coins were still used as money, because the silver in the coin itself did not depend on the issuing government for its worth.

Of course, carrying around too much coin can be bothersome, so many nations, including our own, issued paper notes as a convenience. But that paper currency of the nation was just a convenience. The gold and silver certificates were merely "claim checks" for the equivalent weight of gold or silver held in the treasury, and which would be produced on demand when the certificate was presented. But in the end, the lawful dollar of the United States was 371.25 grains of silver, or 24.75 grains of gold.

The problem with this system from the point of view of the government or the banks is that it limits the amount of money they can work with. When the bank runs out of silver or gold (or the equivalent certificates) it can no longer lend any more money with which to earn interest. When the government runs out of gold or silver (or the equivalent certificates) it can no longer spend money (just like the rest of us).

The immediate effect of ending the gold standard was that with the paper dollar no longer legally dependent on 371.25 grains of silver or 24.75 grains of gold, more paper dollars (now called "Federal Reserve Notes") could be printed, their actual worth no longer under the control of the citizens but under the control of the issuing central bank, based on the total number of dollars printed (or created as credit lines) divided by the estimated worth of the nation's assets. The more dollars which are created out of thin air, the less each one is worth.

A federal Reserve Note.

The swindle of the system is simple. The Federal Reserve Bank hires the US Treasury to print up some money. The Federal Reserve only actually pays the treasury for the cost of the printing, they do NOT pay $1 for each 1$ printed. But the Federal Reserve turns around and loans out that money (or credit line) to banks at full face value, those banks which have exhausted their deposits then loan that Federal Reserve fiat money to you, and you must repay it in the full dollar value (plus interest) in work product, even though the Federal Reserve printed that money for pennies, or created it out of thin air in a computer.

As the Federal Reserve overprints more money, the money supply inflates, and too much money starts chasing too few goods and services, which means prices go up. But contrary to the charade put on by the Federal Reserve, inflation doesn't just come and go due to some arcane sorcery. The Federal Reserve can halt inflation any time it wants to by simply shutting down those printing presses. It therefore follows that both inflation and recession are fully under the control of the Federal Reserve. This means the cycle of inflation and recession is an intentional one; a gigantic heartbeat that pumps paper certificates out to the working class, while pumping real wealth in to the owners of the banks.

Over time, that excess of printing has destroyed the value of that dollar you think you have. If you want to know by just how much, go out and try to purchase 371.25 grains of silver right now. Usually, the deterioration is gradual. Sometimes, it has to be obvious, such as the 1985 devaluation (done to halt the trade imbalance) which triggered the Japanese real-estate grab in this country.

Many politicians have attempted to reverse this process.

During the term of Abraham Lincoln, the banks demanded high interest to fund the civil war, reaching as high as 24% to 36%. Lincoln, rather than sell the country into permanent debt on the interest bearing bank notes, ordered the US Treasury to issue new legal tender popularly called Greenbacks, that funded the civil war without incurring huge interest debts. The system worked so well there was popular support for continuing the system after the end of the war, but issuance of the Greenbacks was halted after Lincoln was assassinated.

John F. Kennedy issued an Executive Order 11110, requiring the Treasury Department to start printing and issuing silver certificates for the silver then remaining in the US Treasury. Kennedy understood, as did Lincoln, that by returning to the constitution, which states that only Congress shall coin and regulate money, the soaring national debt could be reduced by not paying interest to the bankers of the Federal Reserve System, who print paper money then loan it to the government at interest. This was the reason he signed Executive Order 11110 which called for the issuance of $4,292,893,815 in United States Notes through the U.S. Treasury rather than the Federal Reserve System.

John F. Kennedy's United States Note.

That same day, Kennedy signed a bill changing the backing of one and two dollar bills from silver to gold, adding strength to the weakened U.S. currency.

Kennedy's comptroller of the currency, James J. Saxon, had been at odds with the powerful Federal Reserve Board for some time, encouraging broader investment and lending powers for banks that were not part of the Federal Reserve system. Saxon also had decided that non-Reserve banks could underwrite state and local general obligation bonds, again weakening the dominant Federal Reserve banks".

Kennedy's E.O. was never implemented following his assassination, and shortly afterwards, United States silver coins were taken out of circulation and replaced with the copper clad slugs in use today. These two events, the failure to print new silver certificates, and the substitution of worthless slugs for our silver coins, may explain why the Warren Commission included on its panel John J. McCloy, a man with no experience in crime, law enforcement, or national security, but who had been the President of the Chase Manhattan Bank.

It should be noted that the banks themselves are still using the gold standard. Accounts are still settled between major national banks by the transfer of gold bullion.

So here we are with a bank that legally counterfeits the money you borrow but expects a full value (plus interest) repayment. But what's good for the Federal Reserve is good for the government itself, and this is where we get back into that funny word "deficit spending". The government spends more money than it takes in. It has for many years now. The Federal Reserve, being the only lawful source of this fiat money, prints up the excess cash the government needs (or manufactures a credit line in a computer). This extra cash is treated as a loan, in order to keep the government overspending from further eroding the worth of the dollar in the world market. The government (meaning the taxpayers) is on the hook for the full face value, plus interest.

But there's another problem. The government is borrowing so much money that it drives the interest rates up! You pay MORE interest on your mortgage, car loan, and credit cards, because the government cannot balance its books. That extra interest you pay is therefore another hidden tax. The government, in its "generosity", gives you a tax credit on mortgage interest that is higher because of their own borrowing!

During the 80s, as exports dropped, and jobs moved from manufacturing to lower paying "service sector" jobs, the US tax base declined. In order to keep the jobless rate from rising, a massive defense program called the Strategic Defense Initiative was cranked up, but since this program produced no exportable product, it produced no taxable sales revenues, and hence the money poured into the project accelerated the government decline into debt. Because manufacturing was on the decline, fewer start-up companies were approaching the lending institutions, so the government loosened up the rules (while increasing the insurable deposit limit) to allow "investments" in more high risk ventures, most of which turned out to be frauds, or worse, money laundering operations for drug criminals. This includes Whitewater, Flowerwood, and Castle Grande. Despite shifting the S&L loss primarily onto the taxpayers (to reassure foreign investors that the taxpayers still made America a safe place to park their surplus cash) the government plunged further into debt.

In the 12 years of the Reagan/Bush(I) administrations, the United States went from being the world's largest creditor nation to the world's largest debtor. Many of those nations which had enjoyed huge trade surpluses started loaning that profit back to the United States with the stipulation that we work on our manufacturing, clean up our infrastructure, raise taxes, in short, clean up our act, so that investment in America makes sense!

However, we didn't quite do that.

There has been some shuffling around to try to conceal the real scope of the problem. Over the last several years, the Federal Government has been sending less tax money back to the states than it takes in in taxes. This means that the states have to borrow MORE money to cover their obligations. The net result is that the debt is being transferred to the states, to conceal its true size. The government will easily admit to a $3 trillion "publicly held" debt, grudgingly concede that it's "unfunded liability" brings that number to almost $7 trillion, but the real hard truth is that total government debt, state and federal, is now over $14 trillion dollars, or about 50,000 for every man, woman, and child inside the United States. Since 1960, the taxpayers have shelled out $15 trillion in interest payments alone, while the principal continues to rise.

Yet another stunt the government has pulled is to "borrow" from the various trust funds under its control. Some $2 billion has vanished from the trust accounts of Native Americans (presently suing the Departments of the Interior and Treasury), and nearly ¾ of a TRILLION dollars has been removed from your Social Security retirement trust fund and spent in the last 8 years.

If the government has to borrow your retirement money when things are supposed to be so good, under what conditions can it repay the money? Or is that government IOU in your retirement account merely a promise to either tax you a second time or stiff you on the benefits you thought you were paying for?

In the last 8 years, during what are supposed to be record setting good times, the Federal government has nearly DOUBLED its debt load. The estimated interest on the debt equals all the personal income tax paid by all Americans. Our government is so deep in debt that it cannot get out.

This brings us to the issue of collateral. We've borrowed so much money the lenders are getting nervous. Back during the Johnson administration Charles DeGaulle demanded the United States collateralize the loans owed to France in gold and started carting out the bullion from the treasury. This caused several other nations to demand the same and President Nixon had to slam the gold window closed or the treasury would have been emptied, since the United States was even then in debt for more money than the treasury could cover in gold.

But Nixon had to collateralize that debt somehow, and he hit upon the plan of quietly setting aside huge tracts of American land with their mineral rights in reserve to cover the outstanding debts. But since the American people were already angered over the war in Vietnam, Nixon couldn't very well admit that he was apportioning off chunks of the United States to the holders of foreign debt. So, Nixon invented the Environmental Protection Agency and passed draconian environmental laws which served to grab land with vast natural resources away from the owners and lock it away, and even more, prove to the holders of the foreign debt that US citizens were not drilling. mining, or otherwise developing those resources. From that day to this, as the government sinks deeper into debt, the government grabs more and more land, declares it a wilderness or "roadless area" or "heritage river" or "wetlands" or any one of over a dozen other such obfuscated labels, but in the end the result is the same. We The People may not use the land, in many cases are not even allowed to enter the land.

This is not about conservation, it is about collateral. YOUR land is being stolen by the government and used to secure loans the government really had no business taking out in the first place. Given that the government cannot get out of debt, and is collateralizing more and more land to avoid foreclosure, the day is not long off when the people of the United States will one day wake up and discover they are no longer citizens, but tenants.

The following map shows the current extent of all lands grabbed by the government under the guise of environmentalism.

In short, the United States is in deep trouble. We have lost a huge amount of our manufacturing capacity, and those products we still make do not compete well on the world market, despite the steady devaluation of the dollar. In short we have vast debts to pay and little to pay them with. Like the foolish Farmer we have sold the machinery that allowed us to prosper, and we stand around shaking our investment portfolios back and forth in the hopes that the money inside will somehow grow all by itself. It won't. It never has. The very best that can be said is that money gets moved from one person to the other.

Those nations and banks to whom we owe money have been very patient indeed with us. They know that our economies are so tightly entwined that what hurts America will hurt them. But sooner or later, possibly after a market crash, someone, in order to pay their own debts, will demand their loans to the United States be paid. Rather than get caught with "bad paper", there will be a run on the United States government.

In addition to the government debt of $14 trillion, our businesses are home to trillions more in foreign investment, kept here by the promise that the American taxpayer will be made to cover all losses. But with our manufacturing in decline and our schools producing far more lawyers than anything else, it should be obvious to the prudent observer that the American taxpayer, even if so inclined, may not be able to cover the losses of their own government, let alone a foreign investor. That has to be making them nervous as well.

This brings us to the "equities markets", most notably the stock market. Over the last several years a constant media harangue has assured us that the soaring numbers of the stock market are the sole measure of how good our economy is. But close examination of those high-priced stocks reveals that most are heavily over-valued; their price the result of market forces rather than underlying worth (earnings ability). Amazon.com, as one example, has had a terrific run-up of its stock price, even though the company itself has yet to show a profit.

The government has admitted to using covert means to prevent a market downturn; to keep the stock prices at an artificially high and overvalued level, in order to wave those impressive numbers about as "proof" that everything is okay so that the taxpayers go back to work and pay more taxes. But in order to keep those stock prices up above their actual worth, demand must be maintained to keep the prices high. In other words, NEW investors must constantly be brought into the bottom of the pyramid to keep the prices of the stocks at the top from dropping. Hence the onslaught of commercials luring neophyte investors into the stock market via "online trading". Like any Ponzi scheme, the stock market will collapse when no more new buyers can be dragged in at the bottom. As the market starts to stutter, governments (most recently Britain) have moved to dump huge reserves of gold onto the world market to depress gold prices and deter investors from deserting the stock market for gold.

Some years back I worked on the film version of "The Day The Bubble Burst", and in between playing a stock broker, I got to spend some time with the show's consultant, Mr. William Hupt, who had been on the trading floor in 1929 as it all fell apart. He still had, framed, that last strip of ticker tape that ushered in the Great Depression, and he shared some stories which have a bearing on what is going on today.

The first story Bill shared is that there had been early indications of a dangerously over-valued market, running too deep on margin, and like the Plunge Protection Team, the largest investment houses, in particular the House of Morgan, attempted to reverse the early corrections by purchasing large blocks of stock in order to create market demand and drive the prices back up. It worked all but the last time.

The second story Bill shared was that a friend of his, riding up to his office in September of 1929, overheard the elevator operator chatting about his own stock portfolio, and his investments. Something about that image of an elevator operator playing the market set off warning signals, and Bill's friend immediately liquidated his entire portfolio, just in time to miss the great crash. Many people, including the actor Charlie Chaplin, had recognized the "recruitment" of that segment of society that did NOT have risk capital as new investors as a desperate attempt to prop up an overvalued market, and got out in time to save their own personal fortunes.

In the end, there is no such thing as a free lunch. You cannot make money grow in value by shaking it back and forth from one bank to another. You cannot prosper a nation by doing each other's laundry, or filling out their government mandated and greatly obfuscated paperwork, or flinging stock certificates around which may have as little real worth as Federal Reserve Notes. To make money, to show a profit, you must make products that somebody else wants to buy, and sadly, that is a capability the United States has allowed to slip away in great measure. The "service economy" was political propaganda to make the public believe that the decline of our manufacturing ability was a good thing.

Our nation is broke, bankrupt, and having sold much of its machinery and technology (or given it away to political donors), is unable to easily return to those endeavors which once made our nation great. Our infrastructure is in decay (the percentage of roads in the US with major damage doubled last year alone), our public schools unable to produce a workforce able to function in a high-tech manufacturing environment, and those managers end engineers with manufacturing experience have in great part been lured away to other nations. The severity of our total government debt has reached a point where the promise that the taxpayers can be made to cover any foreign investment loss rings hollow, because we can no longer pay the debts our government has now.

Our nation is in trouble. We don't make many of the products we used to make. Consequently we don't have the products to sell that we used to. We don't even make most of the products we need ourselves (like that computer you're staring at this very moment). Result: we have a massive trade imbalance. Cash is flowing out of the nation, and it's not coming back in anywhere near as fast. There's no way to spin it; that is a major problem. Our nation is becoming poorer, it is hopelessly in debt, and all the artificial escalation of stock prices cannot conceal that.

And as the artificially pumped up stock market continues to decline, the true scale of the economic horror which is the product of decades of government corruption, will become apparent to all.

A very good book on the subversion of our money system is, "Money" by Jim Ewert, and is available at http://www.principiapub.com

Joe Smith started the day early having set his alarm clock (MADE IN JAPAN) for 6 a.m. While his coffeepot (MADE IN CHINA) was perking, he shaved with his electric razor (MADE IN HONG KONG). He put on a dress shirt (MADE IN SRI LANKA), designer jeans (MADE IN SINGAPORE) and tennis shoes (MADE IN KOREA). After cooking his breakfast in his new electric skillet (MADE IN INDIA) he sat down with his calculator (MADE IN MEXICO) to see how much he could spend today. After setting his watch (MADE IN TAIWAN) to the radio (MADE IN INDIA) he got in his car (MADE IN GERMANY) and continued his search for a good paying AMERICAN JOB.

At the end of yet another discouraging and fruitless day, Joe decided to relax for a while. He put on his sandals (MADE IN BRAZIL) poured himself a glass of wine (MADE IN FRANCE) and turned on his TV (MADE IN INDONESIA), and then wondered why he can't find a good paying job in.....AMERICA.....

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ARTICLE2/doodoo.html?q=ARTICLE2/doodoo.html

whatreallyhappened.com

infowars.com

You must not live the usa then. Last year it was reported that the average person in pennsylvania pays 62% of there wages in taxes. I talked to people from other states and they have the same complaints as I do.

You must not have talked to me then..............

Vague, unsubstaintiated figures and claims do not work on thinking people

Just paid my taxes, or should say collected my refund. About 30% for me, and I live in a high tax state.

Where is the money going to come from? cut spending..

Maybe if Bush hadn't wasted billions in Iraq our deficit wouldn't be so high. Fact : about 80% of the current deficit was created by Reagon, Bush 1 and Bush 2. In the four years Obama will be in office the US will have to pay $1 trillion on interest on the deficit those three Presidents created through their excessive spending on military contractors.

Tom, can you not carry on a conversation without name calling? what are you, 12? Just because you are brainwashed doesn't mean the rest of the nation is.

Taxes are too high? Really? Honestly? I'm right in the middle of the middle class, and I pay less in taxes percentage-wise than I ever have. Taxes are low right now! Where is the money going to come from, folks?

Shhh... Don't inject FACTS into this discussion?!?

Just because taxes are at historic lows doesn't mean Republicans shouldn't have a nice "teabagging" experience...

Last year it was reported that the average person in pennsylvania pays 62% of there wages in taxes.

i don't believe that stat at all. Link w/ proof? And besides, if it IS true it's probalby low/middle income Pennylvania's paying that much (cause they spend nearly 100% of their income). The richest pennsylvania's problaby pay under 20% in taxes (because capital gains is only 15%)...

It's not the federal taxes that get us, although they are probably too high, it's the state and local taxes.

I think it's great that people are doing something, even if I don't agree. We need more activism, rergardless of which side it comes from. It's the catalist that gets us ALL going. Go down fighting...

You are paying less in taxes because you are still paying taxes imposed under the Bush administration. Just wait until Obama's spending catches up with you, then you will be crying that your taxes are too high. I guarantee it!!!

The paper and the news listed every single tax we pay here in Pa and let me tell you there are over 70 taxes we pay everyday.

Do you have a link to this info?

If taxes are so low according to you and members of the looney left (liberals), then why don't you volunteer to pay the high taxes that the majority of the middle class will be paying. That would make us both happy.

Its not just fed taxes there are complaining about it is state and local too. Take toledo OH one small thing is the trash pick is included in the local city tax Now they have to pay extra on top of the tax they are paying . Just for the city to raise more money to pay there over spending. Where will it Stop?????????????????

Better question is where are the jobs going to come from. Isn't it a good idea to stop the spending spree, then cut spending again, cut taxes (Corp. Tax, Individual tax and Capital gains) and give Businesses an incentive to create jobs.

This Administration has absolutely no idea how to create jobs. The Stimulus will not create jobs. Unless you want to work road or bridge construction.

You want to see how taxation works, just come to Michigan where our wonderful Governor is taxing the hell out of small business. In a State where 50% of all College Graduates leave the State after Graduation to seek employment and a family is leaving Michigan every 12 minutes, someone with common sense might be able to sense a problem here.

When you have Government Officails who cheat on their taxes, I think this is hint we have a problem with Taxation in this Country and with our tax code as a whole.

Why in the world would you penalize the vary entities that create jobs for this Country. Especially in a Time when we're losing 700,000 jobs a month. I guess there is no urgency for this Obamavich den of thieves.

nexisodessa - I really would like to see the actual info and breakdown of the taxes here in PA because so far, I can't come up with anything near that high a percentage rate. I've included federal, state (including extra taxes I get nailed with by NJ because I work there), local, and property taxes. I'm only getting 32.5% of my income in taxes. Add in the refund I got this year from Uncle Sam, and it drops down to 28.7%
What am I missing? Utility, gas and sales taxes, maybe?
Before the conservatives start railing on me (I am not a democrat), I'm not in any way shape or form defending taxes. To me even a 28% tax is too much. I just want to know where the 62% is coming from. And yes, I am middle class, not the rich elite.

Hey,

All you fools, who seem to think taxes are "low", or "reasonable" or "fair", get out your checkbook, and start writing. Show up at the PO with all those ACORN robots, and offer to write the check for anybody mailing a tax return tday. Come on now, don't be shy........get on out there and do your "public duty"...

I, personally, like Medicare and I like Social Security and I like free education for K-12 and I like clean air and good roads and I appreciate the CDC and I understand the need for public parks and I utilize them.

AND, I will gladly pay higher taxes for health care for all Americans.

I think we have a pretty good deal here, folks.

Best to all!

if it IS true it's probalby low/middle income Pennylvania's paying that much (cause they spend nearly 100% of their income).

Ummm..... How does the amount of their income that they spend effect the amount of taxes they pay in respect to their earned income? BTW, no, I don't spend nearly all of my income....

AND, I will gladly pay higher taxes for health care for all Americans.

Then break out the checkbook and pay for it, Greg. Not me. I think welfare, et al needs to go as well. I'm tired of lazy Americans living off of my hard earned dime instead of earning a living for themselves.

Hey Axle1000, how did Bush Sr. and Regan get tied into your post since Clinton supposedly balanced the federal budget and national deficit during his tenure and claimed a surplus was even created? I'm with you on the point that W helped create our currrent mess, but he hardly did it alone.....our bipartisan congress was right there spending away on their own agendas. And all of the allowances a lot of people are giving Obama for nearly tripling our deficit with his spending by saying that he has no choice sounds all nice nice for now, but in a few years when interest rates have to go up a lot to make up for all of this, then what will those same people do? Do any of you remember the mid to late 80's when a good mortgage rate was 10-10.5% for someone with perfect credit? I fear that is where are headed back to sometime in the next few years.

And when are we going to stop attacking each other.....do people not realize they are arguing over things that the average person (myself included) doesn't even comprehend enough to take such spirited positions on? I mean, most people on here just repeat the things they have heard on tv or read on the internet and assume to be the absolute truth.....ever hear of the "fallacy of print" idea that just because you read it somewhere does not make it true?

My point is this.......all of the name calling and finger pointing is all good until the shooting starts in this country once again......that is my biggest fear for our country that no one in our country's leadership position seem to even have an interest in addressing or trying to rememdy this increasingly hostile relationship between its countrymen/women and one day, the simmering slow boil is going to cause something to happen somewhere. Think about it.....we already have enough radical people out there that have been commiting acts of violence/vandalism in the name of their environmental views......we have plenty of militia/extremist groups out there that just love shooting their guns and plotting the revolution......all it is going to take is for too much pressure to build into the system and something will blow. My point is this....both sides have their elements that have a long record of demonstrated violence or the propensity for and it is just a matter of time before sticks and stones may break my bones but bullets kill me.

and Granholm & Co are still wondering why businesses along with people are running for the boarder.

All my life, the liberals always say that taxes are not high, and they don't mind paying.

Yet they still take every deduction, and never send in any extra money to the Gov't.

So in these "extrodinary economy times" I'm sure you liberals will be sending in extra to support the Gov't that you love as your mother.

Put your money where your mouth is... Tax a liberal.

Take a look at this chart, facts, not finger pointing :

http://www.city-data.com/forum/attachments/2008-presidential-election/21040d1212792152-what-will-you-give-up-pay-national_debt.jpg

As to how is Reagan and Bush 1 in my argument, because Clinton never claimed to eliminate the deficit, he had an annual surplus in his annual budget and was paying down the loan. It was never eliminated. A common misperception or deliberate misrepresentation of what Democrats have said.

I'm neither a democrat or republican, I would be insulted with either tag. I would like to know who is sending out the memos stating taxes are historically low? Maybe you folks should add up the taxes and fees paid at every step of the production and shipping process, your state and local taxes and then any federal and payroll taxes paid by you or on your behalf. You might be surprised to find out exactly how much that is, then again maybe you will be feeling rather patriotic which is your option. Now look at the relatives and friends of the state, local and federal officials who are supping at the public trough. How about the contracts that get directed to supporters of the benevolent pols? Yes indeed we cant give them enough. I pay more in taxes today then I thought I needed to make when I got out of school, cut out the unpatriotic snipes, you are full of crap. I am not protesting today, I would never support either corrupt party, but the hypocrisy of the attacks is shameless.

Ummm..... How does the amount of their income that they spend effect the amount of taxes they pay in respect to their earned income? BTW, no, I don't spend nearly all of my income....

I was referring to sales tax. For example, if you spend 100% of your income in Cali you're essentially paying a flat 10% tax on your income in the form of sales tax.

The only conceivable way in which one could get to a marginal rate of 62% would be to pay a high income tax rate (Max rate is 35%), and then rack up additional taxes in the form of property taxes and likely sales tax. Otherwise i cannot fathom how anyone could get to 62%.

If one is rich (e.g. super-rich, not making $150k or something like that, i'm talking about millionaires), they typically pay WAY less than 30% or even 20% in taxes yearly because the bulk of their income is in the form of capital gains, which pay only 15%.

Bottomline is that the 62% number sounds fishy...

I would like to know who is sending out the memos stating taxes are historically low? Maybe you folks should add up the taxes and fees

maybe you should take a look at what the top marginal tax rate paid in the 60's and 70's was? Of even better, the 40's and 50's!!

and make no mistake, this entire tea party nonsense is over the ending of the Bush tax cuts and the top marginal rate going back to 39.6% after 8 years at 35%. Even so, 39.6% would be one of the lowest rates we've had in quite some time, historically speaking.

Actually, PA has a flat tax on income of 3.07 percent per individual with no exemptions and the sales tax is almost no existant for necessary goods. It does have an inheritance and estate tax, but leaves the dirty work on personal property and real estate up to the local municipalities. This is from Bankrate dot com.