Rudy-317202,

It does seem unusual that they collided. Many questions remain unanswered including these:

Did the French announcement in early February about a collision that did not disclose what their submarine struck indicate they did not know they had struck another submarine, or were they keeping the sub collision secret?

Did the British submarine know what they had struck?

Why didn't the submarines see each other on radar and recognize each other in time to prevent a collision?

Due to military policies about secrecy many actions remain secret for lengthy periods of time. I advocate more free release of information. I think this free release of information is even more important for things like prisoner abuse, friendly fire incidents, and false statements than for such rare occasions as this submarine collision that apparently caused no significant injuries or release of radiation. However, this incident certainly could have been much worse.

1. Radar does not work under water.

2. Subs use passive sonar to detect other objects. However modern subs are so quiet that they cant hear each other.

3. One could detonate a large bomb inside of the sub, and completely destroy it, with absolutely no leakage of radiation. The reactors and warheads are designed to withstand the pressure of sitting at the bottom of the sea without leaking.

All the liberal hysteria about what could have happened is simply wrong.

I heard on NPR Radio that the Black Box recorders on the subs revealed that the two captains were having a conversation through two way radio.

The translation is rough of course, but it sounded like the last few sentences they spoke to eachother were to mak fun of "idiots" that let the two satellites collide in space...

Given that radio does not work under water....

And just what will you gain by the free release of this info? Some things are secret for a reason. Giving up all the details for the world (yes that includes potential enemies) to see is just plain stupid.

Yes its a serious no no, but it sounds to me that whatever the systems in place they have for survival work. And that is more important to me than being privy to what happened. The investigation will determine what happened and how to fix it.

There is nothing you need to know, as much as that pains you. And lets be honest, you wouldn't understand half of what you were being told anyways.

Were the sonar techs sleeping????

Now, I am disillusioned by the extraordinary manuvering depicted in the film, "The Search for Red October." Up until now, I thought that film portrayed the real capability of state-of-the-submarines. Perhaps it is only Russian subs that have such technology. It rather reminds me of the James Bond film, "The World Is Not Enough." Now, the Atlantic ocean apparently is not enough!

, The fact that radio does not work under water is well known and most certainly not a secret. Get a grip.

WhatNext-863625, thanks for educating me on radar's ineffectiveness underwater, etc. Below is a link that provides more details on radar and sonar -- in case other readers are interested.

http://www.physlink.com/Education/askExperts/ae456.cfm

I have been to France and England and am thinking how this happened. First the french are horrible drivers. Most of the cars there have well used bumpers and dented fenders. Then the English insist on driving on the left side of the damn road. The Insurance companies need to make both at fault.

Sarcasm of course and I hope I made some of you laugh. The ones that didn't need to lighten up a little and not take life so seriously.

Rudy, not enough room in the Atlantic as well as space it seems ... as we have satellites crashing into each other up there too.

Ahhh what a world, what world ...

Just great...now all the anti-nuke kooks will be out in force. Ms. Hudson, America lost 2 nuke boats in the 60's to catastrophic failure with no radiation released. Get a grip. These have been running since the 50's and are the safest in the world. When U.S.S. Thresher went downin an implosion, the reactor vessel remained, and still is, intact. Of course, with the French involved, they were probably running away from a fish. :)

Dave - Do you think it was a little fish or a big fish! Oh, I know, they thought the other sub was a whale - and they were just trying to get a closer look ... whale-watching by submarine! I agree with you - it was a confused Frenchman. :-)

Maybe the french sub couldnt see because the white flag fell on the periscope.

i dunno....sounds like the making of new underwater sport...deep-sea demo derbys

Poland had a sub. It had a screen door on it.

Dave , I wholeheartedly agree this MUST be the french subs fault . Everything they get involved with is a mess . Why in the world did we ever sell them a Trident ? Good God , we should have given them 1000 tons of soap and 100 million armpit razors for the women .

Before all the insults , I'm half French . Been there , done that many times . I have to admit that British Airways is probably the best airline I've ever flown .

Lol.

one captain to the other: "come on man, you really think we need to report this?  i mean, it's just a little scratch, i'm sure you can just buff that right out....."

OMG! That was sooooooooooo funny!

Good one!

Obviously you have no clue how subs operate. Your "tactical location scanners" do not exist outside of science fiction.

Subs rely on passive sonar in deep water to detect other objects. Therefore if a object is silent, like all modern subs are designed to be, they are invisable.

I guess we know who the true idiots are.

Thank you for saving me the trouble of explaining how submarines work.

I do wonder why all we heard quoted was from the NO-Nukes crowd.

Bias anyone...HMMM

And then they try to claim that the media does not have a liberal bias.

Tactical location scanners....ROFLMAO!!! In the Sub community that's called a Sonar Tech, which would be what my husband does. You need to stop reading those science fiction books. A great book, based on facts, is Blind Mans Bluff.

These weapons are too dangerous??? are you kidding me??? That is why it is called a "weapon" to start with. there is no such thing a a safew weapon (even rubber bullets can kill). I try to make my Cannons or Rocket/missile launchers the Army entrusts to me as safe as I can, but they ARE intended to KILL. And they are very good at that (thats why Artillery is known as the KING OF BATTLE)

ben, love your post and very true. While stationed at the SUBASE in WA ST., when going on base we would have to pass people protesting against nuclear submarines. My kids were a little younger at the time, but old enough to read the huge signs these people held up. It upset them because as far as my kids know their dad leaves on his submarine to keep us safe. Of course I didn't get into a long drawn out conversation with a then 5 and 8 year old...no need to. However, I did stop one day, w/o my kids in the car, and attempt to talk to these people. To my dismay they were very aggressive, irrational, and just angry individuals who claimed to be "peace loving." You can't negotiate nor debate w/individuals like that who think we do not need nuclear submarines.

These weapons are too dangerous??? are you kidding me??? That is why it is called a "weapon" to start with. there is no such thing a a safew weapon (even rubber bullets can kill). I try to make my Cannons or Rocket/missile launchers the Army entrusts to me as safe as I can, but they ARE intended to KILL. And they are very good at that (thats why Artillery is known as the KING OF BATTLE)

Just remember, its the Queen who tells the King where to stick it!

asaylorsgirl,

I had similar experiences with protestors around both Army and Air Force bases in Germany. Some protestors once even laid in the road outside of Ft.Lewis Washington to stop trucks from being UNLOADED after returning from Iraq. (sort of stupid to stop a bunch of duffle bags huh?) They didn't even pay attention to what they were protesting....most were just doing it to cause trouble. I always thought the male protestors were just doing it to impress the girls in the crowd....nothing more.

Sounds to me like there was a lack of paying attention on both sides. Let them have a sort out,lay the blame and get on with life. These things happen. Yes, nuclear subs are to us laymen scary, but so is driving on the freeway at rush hour. No one is perfect. I am just glad there was no loss of life.

Horny M., I'm glad you used the word "enabled." True, the French did help the colonists win the war, but how much is certainly not clear. Do remember that whatever they did do was for THEIR benefit (England and France were mortal enemies at that time.) and not for any altruistic reason.

Also the French expected to be paid for it (actions of the French navy).

Cutter-315893 Pick up a book and read it . It is perfectly clear that without the French, we loose. Simple as that. Read.

And since then, the French have been useless. To quote Monty Python "run away! run away!". We shoulda left them to speak German...twice!

Yes it was. And they have little duckies they shoot at in their oceans.

The French do have a Navy. But this one has glass bottomed boats so they can see the old French Navy.

I knew they had a navy but a Trident ? Holysh** . I hope we have the equivalent of " parental controls " on our tv sets installed on it .

Too funny

Sonar will not prevent what happened, because when a sub is running in deep water they only use passive sonar, so as not to betray their own location. Given that most modern subs are virtually silent, there is no sound for passive sonar to detect and therefore no way for the subs to "see"each other, which is precisely the intent. After all, you do not want your enemy to be able to detect you.

WhatNext, thank you for clarifying that. I never was a submariner. I should have thought of that before posting and I thank you for correcting my ignorance as nicely as you did.

Well they could ping every five minutes, I saw it in a movie once. And I know what I'm talking about, I have a dolphin pin and popeye suit in my closet. LOL Jeez

WhatNext...My husband threw the BS flag on yourstatement. He is a Senior Chief Sonar Tech on Submarines. Served on The USS Salt Lake City, USS PENNSYLVANIA(B) and USS OHIO...and is going to the USS MICHIGAN(B)

No problem.

I would guess it was just one of those one in a billion happenings, where both of their patrol routes intersected, and they happened to be at the same location, and the same depth at the same time.

Just one of the hazards of the "Silent Service"

Explain precisely how what I said is BS.

1. You don't use active sonar, especially on a missile boat if you are out on patrol and want to remain hidden.

2. Yes our sonar is probably the best in the world, and the Brit's are undoubtedly excellent also, but that still does not allow you to detect something that is almost completely silent. And, yes, I am giving the French the benefit of the doubt that they purchased a decent sub from somewhere.

While it shouldn't have happened, there is always that chance. And yes, there are many hazards of being part of the Silent Service, this just happens to be one among a list of many. Every time our husband's go to sea those of us left behind pray they return safely. When we in the sub community hear of something like this, our first thought is the crew and their families. I would never want to be in those shoes and God willing I never will be. While I understand that people want to believe alot of what they read, the things posted on here are just not accurate. As a family member I don't understand completely the entire workings of a submarine either and certainly don't claim to. I can't even say I know with 100% certainty what my husband "does," and not sure I would want to either. It takes a unique individual to do what these guys do. Some say they're crazy, but rest assured they're not....they have a love affair with the dark depths of the ocean that not many understand. My husband just passed his 18th year of service and will go on to do 26 years total. In our family the joke is, once retired I will have to get him a sail boat so he can continue his love affair.

While I honor the men and women of our service, you have not given any justification for your statement that my post was BS. Please explain.

WhatNext, please understand that I am bound by the SECNAVINST even as a spouse/dep. Have to ask my husband what's public knowledge before posting.

I understand, but don't say that facts that have been public knowledge for years are BS without being willing to back up your statements.

My husband said this...as he chuckled...you believe what you want, referring of course to your original post to Ed-NAVDOC. I cannot post any information on this public website as a rebutal. Sorry. Have you read the book Blind Mans Bluff??

What about the little infered cameras that they use for close objects... someone must have been asleep at the tv monitors too!

Sometimes those cameras can see quite a distance!

And don't forget the phaazors and photon torpedos. The best thing we have is the UWWD (Under Water Warp Drive!

My God will you people read Jane's fighting ships of the world.

Yes, long time ago.

Does not change basic physics.

All naval vessels (submarines and surface ships) have a sound signature that can be picked up with passive sonar, ie. normal mechanical noises, reactor noise, or water flow noise over the hull (depending on speed), to name a few. The U.S. submarine forces (as do the forces of other nations) keep a library of these identifying sounds for identification purposes. An individual vessel within a class of ships can be identified based on these noises.

There is no such thing as a completely quiet underway submarine. The OHIO class missile subs are considered to be the most quiet nuclear submarines.

Collisions between Soviet submarines and U.S. boats occurred on several occasions during the cold war.

So many experts here except for those who know and ain't saying. France is quite competent, by the way. It is clear many don't read.

The French probably sold the boat to Iran. :)

correct, so start digging underground vault -)

Finely, someone with a clue about how subs operate.

Stealth huh??? That's funny!!! My husband said that's news to him.

You like to take cheap shots, but you seem unwilling to back them up.

Not cheap shots when this IS my life. I can post information to back up what I say, but I'm not willing to put people's lives on the line for you or anyone else. Not to mention what I could say is National Security @!$%#. I'm not new at this whole Navy thing. Was also in the Navy myself. Was stationed at what used to be called SUBASE San Diego. Was on ARCO ARDM-5 a drydock for submarines and then on USS McKee AS-41, a submarine tender. There's a lot of times when my own husband can't even tell me what he does. I don't know you nor know who's reading these boards and do you actually think I'm going to get into a war of words with you just to prove you wrong...and get myself and more importantly my husband in a ton of trouble. Jeopardize his career and security clearance....don't think so.

oops, Is this confirmation by denial. Be careful, military intelligence has no sense of humor.

Exactly. You make claims, and call other liars, and then hide behind your husbands security clearance when asked to defend them. That doesn't give you much in the way of creditability.

I think she just wants to complain about nothing Whatnext, sounds like a troll.

Incidently, too all the uninformed, sonar has two operating modes. Active and passive. Active sonar will create sound waves in the water, these waves propgate through the medium until they impact and rebound of denser materials. This is how fish finders work. Passive sonar essentially listens for ambient noises.

This is much more difficult as it the sounds can be distorted, and now that subs no longer use disel engines. Regardless sonar technicians are highly trained to ID sounds and match them to databases. As a matter of fact good technicians can pick up on sounds inside another submarine. Due to this when a sub is ordered to "run silent" there is a communications black out imposed and not allowed to perform any actions that may make unneeded sounds. I don't know all of the details but those are the fundamentals.

It is a suprise for 2 subs to actually come hit let alone a near miss. Though the circumstances of operation make it not entirely unlikely. Additionally even if they know there's someone around they can't always tell how far away they are without revealing thier position with sonar.

It does make you wonder if one of the subs was shadowing the other, although that would make more sense if one of was an attack sub, not a pair of boomers.

Something about concern for everyone's well-being. The last sentence refers to frogmen. Sorry.....my French is rusty.

The "frog people" are responding to the well being of the "others" and are saying they will be more careful.

"Your worries for our well being .... concern us..., We will hope to be next time more careful and use the turning signals. The frogmen .....

Agreed Paul. And yet we have many military novel readers dismissing this as an unfortunate and acceptable risk that comes with the territiory. A one in a billion happening, as someone put it, does not even come close to the probability of two subs colliding in the ocean.

There is clearly more to this story than ever will be divulged. These two subs were in the same area at the same time for a reason, and I'm sure they were well aware that the other sub was in the area.

I think they mean frogmen, not frog people.

Désolé

You are a moron (French word).

and you too, rednecks, are funny species...it is a wonderful world -)

No, no, no. It's Bush's fault.

lololololololol!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good one!

Are you the guy with the gasoline additive that will make my tank overflow with improved mileage?

No Cleareye! I have tried them all and none work! Do you have a ? about my theory and plan.

We should build rail guns to shoot the spent fuel rods into the sun. Not only do we eliminate nuclear waste but we get to shoot a kick ass gun in the process. Everyone wins.

Exactly! that is the best way to dispose of the spent fuel rods. I thought of that years ago when I first heard of electromagnetic rail guns, before that I theoried using conventional chemical boosters. We could also use the E.R.G's to launch John Boehner and the Grand Obstructionist Party into the sun and solve all of this nations woes in one fell swoop!